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??Wolf's Head Accident - Aug. 18/19??
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By David Appelhans
From Lafayette
Aug 23, 2012
Imaginate
Bikenut wrote:
An unplanned bivy is part of alpine climbing and it was not the first or last time.


This is false, please do not believe that. You should have bailed. Thinking, "hey, it is fine that we are going to get caught out after dark on a technical descent is fine because we can always do an unplanned bivy like the hardcore alpinists..." is going to get you into the same situation again. Unplanned bivy's are not ok. Calling a ranger to see if they know if you are on the right descent route and to check the weather is retarded. Of course your call instigated SAR! Please change your thinking about your so called "alpine" bumbling.

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By Mick S
Aug 23, 2012
If you are pushing your limits to do a long route in a day, unplanned bivys are part of the deal. It all depends on how you manage it. A night out on the summit in good weather, so you can get down safely the next morning is the smart choice.

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By Tommy Layback
From Sheridan, WY
Aug 23, 2012
Tom on Cloud Peak, Bighorn Mtns, WY.  Blacktooth and Mount Woolsey in the background.
I'm the guy who started this thread for the sole purpose of learning from the incident, as I was in the cirque that morning. I have read a lot of great discussions about dealing with stuck ropes, have posted a few good resources on the issue, and feel like a number of folks have walked away with new knowledge. And while many might have done things differently, I am disappointed by the arrogant tone some have decided to take. At the risk of sounding like a peacenik with my head in the clouds...Isn't the world filled with enough haters? Isn't climbing one of our escapes from the bullshit of everyday life and boring, unadventurous people?

And more practically, if you ridicule folks when they share their incident stories, we could drift towards a climbing culture where people will be afraid to share their stories and we won't have opportunities to discuss self-rescue techniques with such a large audience. So please, before you post take a few minutes and ask yourself if there is a more diplomatic way to get your point across.

Until, next time...I'm done with this thread - original purpose has been fulfilled...

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By Doug Hemken
Administrator
Aug 23, 2012
On Everleigh Club Crack.  Photo by Burt Lindquist.
Bikenut, you will notice that, unlike the Resident Experts, the SAR folks did *not* assume they completely understood your situation until they had seen it with their own eyes.

Most climbers have no experience with how specific a disability can be. Sadly, many are unwilling to even imagine it. Such is the world. At some point you just cut your loses and leave them behind.


I'm really impressed that you could make a phone call to Pinedale from Wolf's Head. Back in the day ... cells phones didn't have such good reception!

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By Cor
Aug 23, 2012
black nasty
tom johannesmeyer,

i think it is hard to imagine people not speaking up in what they
believe. bikenut should not take it too personal. these people have the information provided to them, and they stated the feelings they
have. sometimes people don't understand that. even know it seems harsh the way people say things, they are just speaking from the heart, and are not beating around the bush... just like a parent telling a child something. the child may not want to hear it, but will eventually learn from it.

i may seem harsh in my statements, but i would say the same thing to a good friend. i would point out what i thought the errors were.
they might not like to hear it, but that is ok because it would be
straight talk coming from me..

in fact.. recently a friend got stuck up at longs peak. same sort of thingy, a stuck rope. they totally messed up, and needed a rescue.
i told them what i thought, straight up.

so anyway, i think that bikenut should not let this get to
him (or her) and realize that if you post on a public forum people
are going to speak their minds.(negative or positive - straight talk.)

c

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By Tommy Layback
From Sheridan, WY
Aug 23, 2012
Tom on Cloud Peak, Bighorn Mtns, WY.  Blacktooth and Mount Woolsey in the background.
Cor wrote:
so anyway, i think that bikenut should not let this get to him (or her) and realize that if you post on a public forum people are going to speak their minds.(negative or positive - straight talk.) c


Fair enough

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By s.price
From PS,CO
Aug 24, 2012
 Morning Dew ,self portrait
Bikenut,
Seems to me you ultimately did the right thing. Maybe jumped the gun a little. Sounds like you learned from the experience.

Your assumption that all accidents are caused by a lack of skill is way off. Way too many examples that prove you wrong to list here. A couple are the loss of Alex Lowe. And Michael Reardon. No lack of skill in these gents.

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By Cor
Aug 24, 2012
black nasty
s.price, those is bad examples...

alex was killed while unroped at a camp, no technical terrain from
an avalanche that came from way up high.

micheal was killed by a rouge wave.


be safe out there everyone!

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By s.price
From PS,CO
Aug 24, 2012
 Morning Dew ,self portrait
Those ?is? bad examples?. Both accidents, neither having to do with skill. How about Bachar then? Hersey? Skinner? Copp, Dash & Johnson? No lack of skill there and all died while climbing, just like Lowe and Reardon.

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By Cor
Aug 24, 2012
black nasty
ok, bachar died soloing. which was skill related, but he was soloing.

hersey, same thing. soloing is a far more serious game.

skinner's harness broke. it was way too old, and he commented about it.
he also had a new one coming in the mail, which made it even sadder..

so i find those are not skill related. even while soloing, because
that is a whole different game.

any others? :)

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By s.price
From PS,CO
Aug 24, 2012
 Morning Dew ,self portrait
You can't say for sure bachars fall was skill related simply because he was soloing. Hold broke? Bird flew in his face? We will never know.
Same with Hersey.

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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Aug 24, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV
s.price wrote:
You can't say for sure bachars fall was skill related simply because he was soloing. Hold broke? Bird flew in his face? We will never know. Same with Hersey.


It was a bat. A bat flew in his face.

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By ABB
Aug 24, 2012
The character-attacks and name-calling are a bit much. Nothing wrong with being hard on the issues, which in this case are decision-making and alpine skills. It would be interesting to hear what Jed Williamson (Editor, AAC’s Accidents In NA Mountneering) would have to say about this incident.

The gist of what I’m getting from Bikenut’s comments here is that he chose to relinquish control of the situation and allowed the ranger/SAR to dictate the plan.

"I actually only called a ranger to ask for future weather conditions and to find out if they could determine if we were on the correct descent route." After getting info, politely decline assistance, tell them you will hang-up NOW in order to get busy with prussiking and that you most definitely won’t be there for the morning fly-by. Click.

"They put me in contact with SAR...But what I did not realize is that by contacting SAR it was game on for these guys." Not unless you agree to ‘game on’. Unequivocally decline assistance, tell them ‘thanks for the generous offer, don’t want/need a chopper, we’ll be down in a couple hours.’ Click. You think they’re going to fly after hearing that? If so, that's their decision and consequences. They’re not going to come after you with handcuffs and a citation. It isn’t unheard of for climbers to decline rescues.

"So this kind of spun out of control. When SAR said I was doing the right thing and they were going to drop us a rope so we could come down I trusted their judgment." You allowed it to get out of control. You trusted their judgment more than your own. If the chips were down (rain/snow, wind, cold temps) and you had to descend, you’d find it in yourself to get up your rope.

Talk of being slowed by other parties, motorcycle accidents, etc. amounts to nothing. You knew you were moving slow because of other parties but you chose to continue. You knew your rebuilt foot was compromised but you chose to climb. We all know what we’ve signed-up for when leaving the trailhead.

You make it sound as though you had no choice in the matter. You did and were complicit with others’ recommendations. That’s not a sin. No burning in hell. Take responsibility. Brush-up on requisite alpine skills. Glad all ended well.

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By s.price
From PS,CO
Aug 24, 2012
 Morning Dew ,self portrait
Jon Zucco wrote:
It was a bat. A bat flew in his face.

I did not know that. Last I read there were no eyewitnesses to his demise.

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By Cor
Aug 24, 2012
black nasty
i guess i could have typed that better...
in the end i said that i don't really count it,
soloing is a whole different ball game than roped climbing.

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By Jason Todd
From Ranchester, WY
Aug 24, 2012
Moss
"Take responsibility. Brush-up on requisite alpine skills. Glad all ended well."

ABB's reply is spot on. (or +1 in interweb parlance.)

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By NickinCO
From colorado
Aug 24, 2012
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.
ABB wrote:
The character-attacks and name-calling are a bit much. Nothing wrong with being hard on the issues, which in this case are decision-making and alpine skills. It would be interesting to hear what Jed Williamson (Editor, AAC’s Accidents In NA Mountneering) would have to say about this incident. The gist of what I’m getting from Bikenut’s comments here is that he chose to relinquish control of the situation and allowed the ranger/SAR to dictate the plan. "I actually only called a ranger to ask for future weather conditions and to find out if they could determine if we were on the correct descent route." After getting info, politely decline assistance, tell them you will hang-up NOW in order to get busy with prussiking and that you most definitely won’t be there for the morning fly-by. Click. "They put me in contact with SAR...But what I did not realize is that by contacting SAR it was game on for these guys." Not unless you agree to ‘game on’. Unequivocally decline assistance, tell them ‘thanks for the generous offer, don’t want/need a chopper, we’ll be down in a couple hours.’ Click. You think they’re going to fly after hearing that? If so, that's their decision and consequences. They’re not going to come after you with handcuffs and a citation. It isn’t unheard of for climbers to decline rescues. "So this kind of spun out of control. When SAR said I was doing the right thing and they were going to drop us a rope so we could come down I trusted their judgment." You allowed it to get out of control. You trusted their judgment more than your own. If the chips were down (rain/snow, wind, cold temps) and you had to descend, you’d find it in yourself to get up your rope. Talk of being slowed by other parties, motorcycle accidents, etc. amounts to nothing. You knew you were moving slow because of other parties but you chose to continue. You knew your rebuilt foot was compromised but you chose to climb. We all know what we’ve signed-up for when leaving the trailhead. You make it sound as though you had no choice in the matter. You did and were complicit with others’ recommendations. That’s not a sin. No burning in hell. Take responsibility. Brush-up on requisite alpine skills. Glad all ended well.


Sounds like a common problem with the majority of the youth today... I agree 100%

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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Aug 24, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV
s.price wrote:
I did not know that. Last I read there were no eyewitnesses to his demise.


I just like to imagine it was a colony of bats. I dunno. I like the imagery. It's romantic.

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By hberry
Sep 10, 2012
I was up there that day and the party in front offered for stuck rope party to rapel on our ropes. They did not respond to this suggestion, and yelled back that they wanted help climbing up rope a loose rock gully in the dark to free there ropes. In all, there was a safe way for the rescued party to continue to rapel down that didn't involve a helicopter, but they wanted to keep their rope.

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By rgold
From Poughkeepsie, NY
Sep 10, 2012
The traverse out to the Yellow Ridge on the Dogstick Ridge link-up.  Photo by Myriam Bouchard
A Wind River stuck-rope epic from the days when self-reliance was not a choice but a necessity.

supertopo.com/climbers-forum/8...

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