Hillbilly Hollow

I haven't been to the Hollow in a while, but I can vaguely remember the six routes I've listed... If you have better beta, just drop me a line and I will certainly change the route descriptions...

Thanks,
James

This area was discovered by Dave Groth due to an off chance comment by a hillbilly at DL. "I seen rocks like this before..." or some such thing. Dave and Bechler lead all the gear lines and then added the hard lines on the left in the mid 80s. If you have not been here before, the rock quality is mostly excellent and on par with that of the New Sandstone area at DL. A very cool little canyon that could use some modernizing.

Jeremy-

Do you know any of the route names, or consensus grades. I haven't been to the hollow in 4yrs or so.

Route names and grades are currently being researched. I might even go there this weekend and take some pictures...

Regarding the name of the easy bolted route-- I don't know who set it, but the person that introduced me to climbing called it "Swiss Cheese"....Might not be commonly used though.....I Always had a certain affinity for it....Besides a couple trips to a gym, it was my first climb and then lead. Great site!

Swiss Cheese is good enough for me until I hear otherwise...

Wasn't or isn't this area also referred to as "Pasamead Hollow" by a lot of climbers Wisconsin? Just thought I would throw that little tidbit in there. Also, I love the ole bit of Sconny climber lore associated with this place--- permanent residence for Tommy Duechtler (sp?) for quite some time if I remember right???

Went to Hillbilly Hollow last weekend and took some pictures to better describe where the routes are. You can check them out under the individual routes.

I have been climbing at the Hollow for many years now and have even put together a climbing guide to the area and many other areas, but stopped because I did not want to see some of my favorite climbing areas overrun. Many of these climbing areas in Wisconsin have unique ecological niches and some are even off limits due to endangered plant species. Also, many of these climbing areas are not suited for large amounts or even a minor increase in visitors to the area. When providing information on climbing areas please keep in mind the overall impact of providing the information.

I thought those photos looked familiar! Did you get a photo release from that gorgeous lady in the photo?

I have been visiting the Hollow for the better part of the last decade as my backyard climbing refuge. I know no beta other than that collected by myself and close friends and am unaware of any names for any routes other than our friendly references. I am always happy to meet fellow climbers and share this delicate refuge, however, on my visit today I was quite disappointed and taken aback. Someone has felt the need to extensively over-bolt the first face area as well as several ridiculously easy or improbable lines. I can only assume, due to the easy access, that these routes were not bolted on lead. If that is the case, I say "Bad form, ethics, and, moreover, etiquette." Some of these were sketchy, crimpy, run-out leads. With bolts, these routes barely belong in a gym. Whoever is responsible for de-facing the precious and timeless rock of this delicate refuge can feel free to blame me if their lovely hangers go missing.

Perhaps I should see the new bolted routes in question before I comment,.... but in general it strikes me as arrogant to threaten to chop someone's bolts because the climb is too easy, crimpy, or runout for you. If the climbs are that bad, it shouldn't bother you not to climb them.
What next? Removing lines that are (in exactly who's opinion?) too short, too hard, contrived, overhung, or slabby? Even if the routes are lousy, the holes are there--but if a classic climb was ruined in the process, that's another story.
Otherwise I'd encourage you to leave the hacksaw at home (I think most would agree that completely useless holes in the rock are an even greater waste than pointless bolts)..... Do something a little more proactive than reactive if you feel strongly about a particular climbing ethic (which, even given majority support, does not make it intrinsically right), and to go climb something that you do enjoy.

I agree whole heartedly that bolting should not be taken lightly and that one should never bolt a section of a climb if it is otherwise protectable. With that said- removal of bolts is just as bad (unless they are otherwise needing to be replaced or if their presence is defiling a classic climb). Bolt scars are just as bad, but even more they serve no use what so ever.

I was also there this weekend and met you and your friends. The Hollow is also an old local favorite of mine and I agree the new shiny bolts are rather eye catching. I recommend however that instead of removing the bolts (which were on some very fun lines) that instead someone use something to camouflage their shininess (obviously something that will not compromise the integrity of the bolt it self). I think the people who bolted the climb would be more than willing to camoflage the bolts by the end of the summer. Also, on a side note having bolted lines with chains at the top can help reduce soil erosion and damage to trees from ropes and webbing on the top of the cliff.

Additionaly, climbers in the past have been great stewards to this wonderful place and I think we all need continue to do our part to keep the area beautiful by; staying on the trails, picking up trash, keeping the noise down, and respecting the other creatures and plants that share the Hollow. And please no big groups.

Jeff, first off leave the bolts alone. What's done is done and removing hangers and bolts to return the routes to forgotten, over grown, top rope routes is a waste. Next, I am not sure what you are referring to as the first face area, but I would assume it is where the other sport routes are. In which case I will flat out say you are wrong; they are not over bolted. In fact they are very well bolted, did you even bother climbing them? Moving on, what do you mean by easy or improbable? Improbable meaning they are unlikely to be done? All the routes there have been done and seen repeats. And easy meaning easy stuff shouldn't be bolted? Save the elitist crap. And trying to call bad style on rap bolting??? WTF, give me a break and welcome to 1987, that lame attitude died 20 years ago. Lastly, it is nice to have a few good sport routes around; the gear in Southern Wisconsin sandstone is rarely good enough to hold a big fall, and who needs another 5.7 R; there are about 300 at the Lake.

Glad you liked the routes Erik.

I'm a big fan of the new bolted lines at The Hollow. These new lines have exactly the right number of bolts. They are safe and fun to lead from the ground up. I am greatful for the hard work and expense people went to to put up these lines. It's a nice addition to have some well bolted, fun sandstone routes at wisco.

Jeff,

Please think long and hard before you remove any bolts at Hillbilly. Bolted lines have existed at the area since the 80's, and not just hard stuff either. Swiss Cheese, which I would bet you have done, has existed for at least ten years, and it is an "easy" 5.8.

You do not own the area. Many people, like you, have been using Hillbilly as a refuge, and many of those people approve of the new bolting. I have been climbing at Hillbilly since I was a student at UW-Oshkosh, and that was, lets see, 1997 or so. I have fond memories of testing myself on Pagan Rituals back then. I was psyched to actually have a sport climb in a land of run-out quartzite, and many others share my sentiment.

I am responsible for the "improbable" new lines you mention. They, in fact, are very probable. I would suggest that you get on them, as I bolted both The Gap and Manic Depression so that anyone could try to lead them. As JasonH said, WI has enough sketchy gear leads. This from someone who has led 5.12+ death-routes at the Lake.

By chopping a route, you in effect separate yourself from the rest of the community, from those who think the routes are a good thing. These are good people you will be alienating. They are fantastic climbers who could, potentially, be worthwhile friends. Or, with the turn of the wrench, all of that goodwill could be destroyed.

Jeff, I have tried to engage you privately (off site) apparently without success as I have not heard from you. Not sure if you have re-visited this site since your post/threats, it appears that if you have it has at least not been formally (signed in). As such this may be a shot in the dark, but it seems worth giving it a try. I have put too much of my own time (and money) in to the routes to not try again.

If you are intent on following through with your implications can you clarify exactly what you see as the problem? Are you “anti-bolt” in all circumstances? Do you simply feel the routes that were bolted were done so poorly? Is it the fact you feel they are “over bolted”? Not worthy of being a route? It would also be helpful if you could refer to the routes in question, by name, as given on this forum. To be clear, you are entitled to your opinion, as am I and the others who expressed their feelings on this page.

If you are “anti-bolt” as an absolutist stance, I might remind you that the area in question was bolted long before you or I ever climbed there. I would also remind you that you have listed Ouray as a favorite destination, an area which is wholly artificial and has a large number of bolts both for top-anchors as well as for mixed routes. If you feel the routes were bolted poorly, over bolted or not worthy of being “climbs”, again it is your right to have that/those opinion(s). Let me just say that the routes I was involved with (4 of the 5 new routes) were all bolted after consultation with several climbers of varying size and ability; I know the 5th was “bolted by committee” as well. Also, it is my belief that a “moderate” bolted route should be designed with the moderate leader in mind. To me, bolting a 5.6-5.9 route with the 5.10-5.12 leader in mind (i.e. run out on “easy ground”) is an act of ego. The fact that Wisconsin does not need any more poorly protected routes was expressed here by a person who has lead routes with a higher degree of difficulty and a higher R/X rating then I will ever do; while I do not know you I am guessing the same is true for you.

With all that has been said, if you still intend to follow through, keep this in mind. You will also need to patch all of the holes you are now leaving exposed. I do not know your level of experience with this, but I can say from my own experience that patching the holes so they match the surrounding rock is no where near as easy as it seems; in fact it is a messy pain in the ass.

If you are reading this, you should be aware of the sentiment expressed here (on this page). While this is hardly a large sampling of the Wisconsin climbing community, the sentiment expressed seems clear, please re-think your stance and leave things alone. The routes are there for all to enjoy, not for a few to declare ownership. One last thing; if you do follow through please have the courage of your convictions to state it here publicly, after you have removed the bolts/hangers and patched the holes. There is no reason for people to head to a location planning to climb a route, only to get there and find the route “destroyed”. If you are “leaving things alone”, please state that as well.
-ron long-

Being pretty new to south central Wisconsin, I can't claim to be a local. But I am looking forward to finding some of these areas and climbs and IMO it's always sad to read about bolt wars, even potential ones. That's the type of thing that leads to bad blood and possibly area closures. My $0.02.

Hey Jeff,

I did my first lead climbs at Hillbilly Hollow, the 2nd and 3rd of which were on two of the new routes. So if you're saying that they should be chopped because they are too easy, some one like me needs easy sport routes to start on. If you're saying they're too hard, then should all the 5.14 sport routes be chopped on the same principle? Anyways, I support the bolting Jay did because without it I would have only been able to lead one route that day and although it would have been a start I can easily say I was very happing leading three, and giving a burn on Generation Gap. And if you do chop them at least tell everyone. If you worry too much about their "flashiness" I'll admit they are shiny but eventually they won't be and I'm sure you can do something to "unshine" them. Not to mention, I'm not sure how many people go to the hollow for it's aesthetic beauty. Anyways, I appreciate the easier sport routes and hope they will stay there so that it is easier for more people to join the excellent sport of rock climbing.

First off, I believe this area is on private property. It has been posted in previous years. Point being, maybe you should ask the land owners if they want shiny bolts on their wall. Second, Ouray is a totally different concept in which the WHOLE entire community supports (don't even start). Third, I'm with Jeff, you could have went easy on the bolts. A couple of routes look like ladders. I believe in safety, but don't take away from the difficulty of the climb. Some routes are not that hard to warrant 4 bolts in less than 20 feet. Might as well have just left it to toprope. At least make an effort to disguise them.
To some degree I am disappointed to see all of this hardware. What once was a quiet low traffic crag will now be a littered UWSP gymnasium. Might as well bolt it all now. Like a grid!
In a way everyone sounds greedy about these climbs. No one considered what this place meant to Jeff and only considered themselves. Who cares if we don't have a ton of sport routes in Wisco. Maybe it's for a reason.

P.S. Swiss Cheese 5.8? Feels more like 5.6

Elden, since this area may be on private property do you ask the owners before you climb on it? Perhaps, you should save the double standard. Not to mention the area has been bolted for 20 years, I think the owners would have voiced some concern by now. I also find your hypocrasy about the shiny bolts being such an eye sore to warrant removal, but yet you and Jeff haven't removed the huge amounts of graffiti out there. Maybe, it isn't the bolts being an eyesore that is your problem??? Moving on, the routes are safe for a person who leads that grade. For example, a budding 5.7 leader should be safe on a 5.7 lead. Why bolt a 5.7 for a 5.14 climber? That is how these routes were done, and it is the best way to do them. Arguing over how many bolts a sport route should have is kinda lame don't you think? Maybe I should chop all the bolts I don't need? Believe me, if I did that there would only be a couple bolts in Wisconsin, but then again what would that accomplish, and how much would that suck for the rest of the community.

Sh!t happens. We need to get past the differences and move forward.

Last time I contacted the county zoning office that land was WI DNR or DOT depending on where you are at. (It may be DOT land that is managed by the DNR). Second, if there are ever any issues with access which should be the first concern with this area, people need to contact the Access Fund and they will put you in contact with a local group in WI called Wisconsin Outdoor Access.

And as far as bolting goes... Someone better get out there and camo those bolts as a sign of good will. I can tell you this much, it is always is better to work with someone than against them. By simply painting those bolts you will have shown Jeff and anyone else who dislikes the new bolting that you appreciate their perspective and that you want to work with them. On the otherside Jeff it is bad etiquette to threaten to remove bolts without discussing it with the people who bolted it and the climbing community in that area. Instead try and work with those people towards a solution (i.e. a compromise). Like I mentioned earlier bolting should never be taken lightly, and the same goes for the removal of bolts.

A few thoughts.......

1 I hope this “slow bleed bitch fest” does not have to continue here.
2 Even if you do not “care for” the new bolts, can you at least agree to leave them alone? (Elden, others?) Jeff has told me via email he will not remove them, I have asked him to state that here publicly since he made his original threats here. While he has yet to make that public statement (that he won’t remove hardware) I am sure that is only an omission due to time.
3 The new bolts are “shinny” because a) they are new and b) they are stainless, used to prevent long term rust staining the rock. That said, if any one has experience with camouflaging bolts, and they are so offended by their current appearance, feel free to do the job. Please make sure you REALLY know what you are doing (a botched job looks far worse), and then let us all know when the job is completed. I know it is unlikely that I (person who bolted 3 of the 5 new routes) will be back there any time soon.
4 I was also under the impression “Hillbilly” is WI DOT land; if it is not and it is privately owned, it is clear that none of the people involved with this conversation have ever actually talked to the land owners about climbing there, so lets drop that.
5 My stance on how routes should be bolted has already been spelled out here, I will say that complaining about “easy routes” being over bolted is pointless. If you the climber are such a “hardman” that clipping (any of) the bolts is beneath you, don’t clip them. Hell, solo the route for all I care, or make up your own variation. Better yet, if you find the route(s) that easy, why are you climbing it/them in the first place? There is other more difficult ground to climb available. If you don’t like bolts, and you would rather place gear, there are gear routes available, there are even 2 gear routes on that same (1st) wall following the seams/cracks left of center. Both of these could use some TLC since they both have loose/friable rock on them as well as dirt and vegetation. I had thought about cleaning them as well, but ran out of time (just got back from out of state) and right now with all this bitching there is a complete lack of interest.
6 Complaining that adding hardware will encourage other people to climb there is really self centered. Yes, we all need to be good stewards to take care of the resource, but not xenophobes.
Remember folks, Hillbilly Hollow does not have to live up to its name, it can be a place for anyone to enjoy.

I love SHINNY BOLTS on Moderate Faces. KEEP EM COMING!!

To everyone talking about how bad the bolts are/are not: I am home on leave for the first time in a long time and have been pumped to try Hillbilly Hollow since I found out it's a mere ten miles from my parent's house, and has been since I first started climbing way back when. I'm currently stationed in AZ where you can't throw a rock in the air without it landing at the base of a bolted wall and I can honestly say I don't think it detracts from the beauty or the climb at all when you consider the fact that you can really just skip the bolts, rig a TR, or if you're ballsy enough free.

If someone would like to offer some suggestions for camouflaging the bolts (not a situation I'm used to encountering) I will do it before I go back. I would prefer the bolts stay, as some of my closest friends who have lived here their entire lives and are just starting to lead have adopted hillbilly hollow as their training ground. Don't worry, they are very respectful to the land and will never litter or bother the wildlife. Also there's a great trout stream not too far from the crag.

Mr. Long, You appear to be the most self centered person here. I think you spend more time on the internet than you do outdoors. All you care about is your precious little bolts to help you climb better. as far as bitch fest goes you seem to be the biggest bitch on here trying to justify your little climbs you can now so proudly put your name behind(that's all you seem to care about). Who cares, you won! Now get off the computer and go play on your hooks and shut up you baby.

P.S. I look forward to hearing one of your long and whining rants about how you are always right. Or maybe you could just shut up for once? That would be fantastic!

Elden buddy, thanks for the advice. I was outside enjoying the afternoon until a thunderstorm drove me in off the water, once inside I got bored and decided to check “The Proj” to see what kind of nonsense was going on, thanks for not disappointing. When I read your entry, 2 things came to mind. 1) So much for guideline number one (you did read the guidelines for posting, right?). 2) I need to write a scathing response. Upon further reflection though, I realized that nothing I could write here will make you look any worse than your own words already do.

So, if by your comment “Who cares, you won!” you mean you will leave the new routes alone, could you please just state that here? Not sure why you and Jeff seem to be having such a hard time with that concept. If you guys could just say you will leave the hardware alone we can end this, after all I really don’t care what you think of me.

Ps. Not that it matters but, I am pretty sure my outdoor resume the last 16 years or so is nothing to be ashamed of, but thanks for your concern.

Elden,

This discussion has been interesting enough without people resorting to character attacks. If you have something relevent to say about Hillbilly Hollow, post it here. If you want to personally slander someone, find somewhere else to do it.

Well done on disregarding guideline #1. I don't think I've read anything on Mtn Project that has so adamantly shunned the "don't be a jerk" criteria. Well done and congratulations!

Leave the bolts alone. A little spray paint (and I emphasize a little) can camo the bolts very well....just make sure to use the same color as the rock obviously.

As per the grades on routes in the Hollow ("P.S. Swiss Cheese 5.8? Feels more like 5.6"), I always remember referring to that route as 5.7 but after climbing in some of the old school spots in the country you may have an argument in saying 5.6. I think the rating of 5.7 would be more consistent w/ other routes in the area.

Much better than spray paint is the model paint available at hobby stores. The paint comes in handy-dandy sized bottles and can be mixed to create the perfect 'blend'. Stash all the bottles you need with several 10 cent plastic paintbrushes in a small travel bag and you've got your own little 'Michelangelo Kit'. Takes a bit more work than spraying them, but much more satisfying.

Having both added bolts to, and removed bolts from, sensitive areas...I'll keep mum on everything else!

Climbed for the first time at HH today. A real treat. climbed "Curse of the Drill" and "End of the Innocence". Ron, you and your crew did an oustanding job on the bolt placement.

I agree with James. INSTANT CLASSIC!!

Hey I just wanted to say thanks to the guys who bolted both "Curse" and "End," both felt like solid lines for the beginning leader. I had a lot of fun out on them today, thanks.

Wow... I have put off reading this whole section, because A. reading on a computer screen for more than several minutes at a time makes me ornery, and B. after skimming the highlights, I could tell this was better left to those who find themselves in the thick of it; war is hell , and sometimes it is better just to turn the other way.

But, now that the fires seem to be under control I would like to add just a few things...

First, painting hangers is not rocket science. Really, they should always be painted even if they are stainless steel. A good, flat/antirust spray paint prior to the install will go a long way in reducing visual impact. As Seth pointed out, model paints are just as good and one can really do some detail work with that technique. The fact is, is that bolts that people (climbers, hikers, birders, land owners/managers) can't see without purposely looking for them leads to fewer problems across the board. All it takes is a couple minutes, and bam, with quick drying paint, the results are almost instantaneous.

Secondly, bolt wars will come and go, but the rock will be there when we are dead and gone. It is hard to step back from something like this when one feels that one has an emotional attachment to the place. But emotions do not imply ownership, only a kind of love or respect. After reading the comments above (what can you say about that?) I see that both sides of the fence have a level of respect for the climbing there and the climbing potential. However, both sides are also self serving to a degree. Some claim ultimate respect for the rock, where others claim ultimate respect for safety, and/or the climbing community. No one person can say who is right here. We can't simply ask the routes whether or not they are offended by bolts. In my world, it would be left to community consensus. And that may be someone pulling the bolts, and someone else putting them back in. It will work itself out I am sure.

For my third point though, I must say that when Dave and Rich first started climbing here, there was obviously never an anti-bolt stance. If anything, at the dates the first bolted routes were done, this place was the antithesis of traditional climbing... That was the whole point of this place in the beginning. A place where no one climbed, a place that had no rules, a place where sport climbing in Wisconsin in the 1980s, could find a foothold... The fact that it is now a home of such contreversy seems ironic, at best.

FYI I took my first ground fall here about 16 years ago, on one of my first 5.10 gear leads... So, I do have a love/respect for the place, and I am no stranger.

Nicely put Jeremy. I think as climbers, we need to learn to respect the fact that we all think just a bit differently. Some agree with bolting, other do not. I also agree that painting the bolts is a good idea. One I might take upon myself to do in the near future. I saw a few hikers this last weekend. So we climbers are not the only ones coming back here.