Why not a reddit-style arrangement for the forum?

If you've never been to Reddit, it uses upvotes/downvotes to organize thread responses democratically, along with "subthreads" to organize responses (better than the "quote" box).

Basically, it cuts down the time you spend reading through a thread, since the garbage sinks to the bottom and the best (or most useful answers) rise to the top. And it's much less exhausting to read, since responses are arranged sensibly.

MP.com would benefit SO much from this. Especially considering people report about accidents and safety, it's almost tragic that people often won't see the useful (and perhaps life-saving) information since it's hidden among 7 pages of trolling drivel, jokes, and chronologically screwy responses.

The subreddit r/climbing is becoming much more useful than the MP forum for these reasons, despite the smaller community.

Am I right?

I 100% agree and have been saying this for a while. The reddit system creates a stronger community and actually diminishes the bickering and arguments. You don't have to read Lt. Pwnface's outlandish comments that detract from the discussion and have zero relevance just because he was the second guy to post on the forum. And 420blazers troll comments get down voted and moved from the discussion. Urmom69's jerk comments are hardly relevant anymore. All of this creates thoughtful discussion and meaningful comments. Furthermore you don't have to click to the 15th page of the discussion to get the best content. Please consider!!

I do not have experience with reddit.

Are there cases where what is popular is not the best in practice? ... or where what is popular is not the only point worth considering?

A small detour from the topic for an example: Consider ratings on climbs where the consensus rating is a popular vote. Isn't MP.com's consensus on ratings just promoting an average climber that is not well rounded with respect to climbing technique?

Would votes for popular bloggers tend to drown out the occasional but relevant good idea?

So this would rearrange the comments and they wouldn't be shown in the order posted? Considering many threads follow a conversational type flow, that sounds very confusing.

Em Cos wrote:So this would rearrange the comments and they wouldn't be shown in the order posted? Considering many threads follow a conversational type flow, that sounds very confusing.

Correct, they would be re-arranged. Incorrect, it is exceptionally less confusing, which is one reason why Reddit is one of the most popular websites on the internet.

After using conventional forums for years, I almost can't stand them anymore, MP included. Everything from gear sales to beta threads would benefit greatly. Here's an example of a thread from r/climbing.

I would rather not have to go searching in the dregs that are out of context for a nugget that might have been missed by the popular vote. I would rather see all in context.

Just my 2 cents

I think it is worth describing how they are re-arranged. It is not just "most popular at the top." Each comment made can have a reply on Reddit. So, if you reply to a comment as a conversation, that reply will always stay with the comment. So, conversations hold together. However, because of the voting system, an entire conversation that is downvoted will either be moved to the bottom of the thread or be made not visible unless you specifically click on it. This is a good way to hide the trash.

Imagine a thread started called "Accident on Mt. Rainier - 2 injured." You might have a comment in that thread where someone says "My thoughts are with their families right now." A reply to that might be "I know her sister, they are all at the hospital with her right now." That reply is connected under that first comment. Let's say there is another reply later that says "good news! everyone is ok and just at home now recovering." If the community upvotes that comment, then it will be the first one to show under "My thoughts are with their families right now."

Overall, I like the reddit model. The downside is that there can be bad groups of people in the world who hate someone or something and downvote everything connected to that person or topic. It can bury that person or concept so that normal readers don't see it unless they go looking.

Anne McLaughlin wrote: The downside is that there can be bad groups of people in the world who hate someone or something and downvote everything connected to that person or topic. It can bury that person or concept so that normal readers don't see it unless they go looking.

Exactly. After so many downvotes comments become hidden and sometimes deleted.

I for one like to see the comments from the BITD tradiban or even the constant fights that Bearbreeder is getting himself into.

To me Mtn Proj is more of a database tool where guidebooks are not required to go out and find a specific climb or to come equipped with the right gear. The forum to me is pure entertainment and in my mind if you come to the forum looking to learn how to/teach rock climbing you should be looking elsewhere(the crag) or teaching elsewhere(the crag)

T Roper wrote: I for one like to see the comments from the BITD tradiban or even the constant fights that Bearbreeder is getting himself into.

Izzat why I don't see BB post to Reddit very much anymore?

Does it have to be an either or situation? Seems like you could just have an option to either sort the forum by votes, or sort it by dates.

Sounds like it would be a great addition.

Toad wrote: Here's an example of a thread from r/climbing.

Try sorting by "Top", "New" and "Best". You'll see that the posts stay in a reply order that makes sense and is easy to follow.

OP stays on top, initial (primary) replies in the order you selected, subsequent replies threaded in order after that.

wivanoff wrote: Izzat why I don't see BB post to Reddit very much anymore?

I heard he was banned. I do know reddit has way better porn than Mtn Proj does, even a whole page devoted to yogapants

Keep it simple, if it's not broken don't fix it.
One reason I enjoy MP so much is because I don't see a "like, dislike" button everywhere. No need to turn it into a rating/popularity contest too.
I agree, the forum portion of MP is more like entertainment. Moderators can take out more trash if they want but I find most of the comments interesting to read in context, in real time as posted. It's fascinating to see how threads morph...

I prefer the 4chan format, you "upvote" threads by commenting, and if a thread is stagnant for too long, it disappears. I mean, fuck democracy, look at reddit, the context is controlled and anything outside the accepted parameters is immediately hushed. They've literally undermined freedom of speech with the "lets all ban together and make this a one party forum"

KayJ wrote:Keep it simple, if it's not broken don't fix it.

I think there's some misunderstanding here. Reddit is the one that's simple. MP is not exactly broken, it's just antiquated and inefficient. Soon it will be obsolete, and the forum and MP community will suffer.

Seriously folks, even without the upvote/downvote functionality, the "subthread" hierarchy is clearly a better way to do things. At Reddit, it's called the "hive mind" and it's extremely powerful. Everyone benefits, and it's very simple to use.

I encourage anyone who's on the fence to visit some threads on Reddit and see how easy it is to navigate the multiple discussions.

Here's one example of a comment thread. , and here is another. . The hierarchy system just makes my brain hurt less.

Toad wrote: At Reddit, it's called the "hive mind" and it's extremely powerful. Everyone benefits, and it's very simple to use.

"hive mind".... hold on, gotta stop the puke... OK, done.

What is it with all the MPers who act like they're so above all the drama on here? Without the colorful attitudes of some Mountain Project would be like reading a guidebook or gear advertisement..

This forum code is basically unchanged in 10 years now. We'll be re-writing it over the next year and open to these kinds of ideas and opinions. Please continue to post examples - they are particularly helpful.

Thanks for the suggestions so far!

Nick Wilder wrote:This forum code is basically unchanged in 10 years now. We'll be re-writing it over the next year and open to these kinds of ideas and opinions. Please continue to post examples - they are particularly helpful. Thanks for the suggestions so far!

Glad to hear it!

While the upvote/downvote thing isn't necessary (although in my opinion superior), I want to again encourage you guys to do a "subthread" hierarchy where direct-replies can be kept in their appropriate conversation trees. This alone will keep the side-conversations organized.

You won't have to reinvent the wheel to do this; I'm sure there are plugin infrastructures available that do it already.

Here are my thoughts from last time this idea was brought up:

Not a good idea for lots of reasons:

1. It opens up MP to social exploitation, in that companies/groups can hire people to upvote posts that speak positively about their products or goals, and downvote posts that speak negatively. This is a big problem on Reddit.

2. It stifles discussion. Whether conscious or unconscious, people desire the approval of others. If someone suspects they'll receive downvotes for a comment, it might not get posted at all, regardless of its merit. Eventually, a collective groupthink is formed, which is extremely apparent on Reddit.

3. It dumbs down discussion. Take a look at r/climbing. The most upvoted posts tend to be pictures or short blurbs. Thoughtful articles and stories sink to the bottom.

4. Upvoted comments aren't necessarily "good" comments, and downvoted comments aren't necessarily "bad" comments. Unfortunately, a lot of people will see it that way, especially newer climbers. Within a large population, it's guaranteed that the average person is not well informed on every subject, and it's a lot easier for the ill-informed to click "upvote", rather than post their own opinion, which can be rebutted.

David Barbour wrote:Here are my thoughts from last time this idea was brought up: Not a good idea for lots of reasons: 1. It opens up MP to social exploitation, in that companies/groups can hire people to upvote posts that speak positively about their products or goals, and downvote posts that speak negatively. This is a big problem on Reddit. 2. It stifles discussion. Whether conscious or unconscious, people desire the approval of others. If someone suspects they'll receive downvotes for a comment, it might not get posted at all, regardless of its merit. Eventually, a collective groupthink is formed, which is extremely apparent on Reddit. 3. It dumbs down discussion. Take a look at r/climbing. The most upvoted posts tend to be pictures or short blurbs. Thoughtful articles and stories sink to the bottom. 4. Upvoted comments aren't necessarily "good" comments, and downvoted comments aren't necessarily "bad" comments. Unfortunately, a lot of people will see it that way, especially newer climbers. Within a large population, it's guaranteed that the average person is not well informed on every subject, and it's a lot easier for the ill-informed to click "upvote", rather than post their own opinion, which can be rebutted.

David is 100% correct.

Let Reddit be Reddit. MP is its own creature. I, for one, prefer the standard and linear flow of conventional forums when discussing technical topics. Highly valuable posts on esoteric topics have a way of disappearing in Reddit. Maybe it's because of their woefully inadequate Search tools. It might also be that because Reddit is SO popular there's a piss poor SnR ratio. Here, despite the idiots and the trolls, it's still pretty high.