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Whole Lot of Drunk S 

Whole Lot of Drunk 

YDS: 5.11b/c French: 6c+ Ewbanks: 23 UIAA: VIII- ZA: 24 British: E4 6a

   
Type:  Sport, 1 pitch
Consensus:  YDS: 5.11a/b French: 6c Ewbanks: 23 UIAA: VIII- ZA: 23 British: E3 5c [details]
FA: Wright, Anderson, Desimone, 1991
Page Views: 1,397
Submitted By: Richard M. Wright on Jan 22, 2002

You & This Route  |  Other Opinions (9)
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BETA PHOTO: Above the crux.

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Description 

Whole Lot of Drunk runs the easy looking face right of The Resolution and was originally given the ridiculous rating of 5.10. Not! We must have been feeling frisky. Either stick clip the first bolt or work up to it very carefully. A very tricky sequence uses the arete on the left and an undercling crescent on the right with very intricate footwork. The top of the arete is followed by a big reach right to a jug, still on very marginal feet. The line then follows the face above without bailing out into the trough on the left, although this is commonly done. Good stone and a line that delivers the technical crux in the first 20 ft.

Protection 

Eight draws and a rope.


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Comments displayed oldest to newestSkip Ahead to the Most Recent Dated Jul 21, 2008
By Old Fart aka Dave Bohn
Mar 24, 2002

Absolutely NOT a 10d. I did this a couple of years ago and it felt a LOT!! harder than 10d;I think 11c is not out of range. But the the climbing above the start REALLY slacks off. I would really recommend stick clipping the first bolt! A pretty good route over-all.
By J. Darnell
Apr 17, 2004

Climbed this route today. Its a good route and I think that it is hard 10. The first bolt should be stick cliped . Bad landing if you blow it. The start is the crux but the climbing eases up after the jug at the 2nd bolt. must do if your climbing at this level. Good Table Mtn. route.Joshua Darnell
By Tzilla Rapdrilla
Jul 14, 2008

Joe Desimone or others had nothing to do with the first ascent of this route, Tod Anderson did the FA.
By Richard M. Wright
From: Lakewood, CO
Jul 14, 2008

I put WLD in myself with Joe. FA data are easily squared up with Joe. There may be some confusion about the naming in this sector, or perhaps the way it is listed on the web site. As I recall TZ you had several other routes in this sector.
By Tzilla Rapdrilla
Jul 14, 2008

Unless they got the name on the wrong route, which is entirely possible, I named that one & was definitely on the FA. Many routes I have lost track of over the years, but there are a few that I distinctly remember naming & wouldn't have named had I not been on the FA. There are somewhere between 50 and 100 routes in CCC, Table and a few other areas that my name wasn't associated with the FA though, despite drilling, cleaning or sending, so it may be hard to totally reconstruct the somewhat irrelevant FA info.
By Richard M. Wright
From: Lakewood, CO
Jul 15, 2008

Few points. 1) I don't poach or steal. 2) Perhaps the result of my dissertation committee burning it into a lower part of my brain stem, I do keep detailed and anally accurate notes - all the way back to the 4th of May 1980 when I took my first climbing lesson with Paul Sibley - bouldering above the Elephant Buttress in Boulder Canyon. My notes are strictly accurate on the FA data. 3) My information is easily verified by chatting with Joe, in the case of this route. 4) Is there any conceivable brownie point worth sputtering about over 50ft of 5.10/5.11 climbing ???????
By Tzilla Rapdrilla
Jul 15, 2008

FA - TA March 1991, who else was there? dunno. Likely some of the folks who's names also appear on routes from that era. Recently I found an old route list I kept from way back then, so I'll fill in some missing data here and there. Generally I tend to include team members rather than exclude whenever the info actually exists.
By Richard M. Wright
From: Lakewood, CO
Jul 18, 2008

The first published reference to WLD occurs in Ken Trout's miniguide to North Table Mountain, Vol 44 (1992). FA citation was Anderson, Desimone, Wright. My own notes and memory are utterly clear that I bolted the line and returned a day later with Joe, both of us getting the red point, which was not done on the day it was bolted. I certainly did not bolt the line alone and certainly TA was part of the initial route installation, we placed the bolts together. It is incorrect to say that neither Joe nor "whoever" was not involved. Nor is correct to post the route without including TA's contribution. So, Ken has the attribute correct.

This raises an interesting and relevant point, and this minor route might as well serve as whipping boy for the topic. In the creation of a new route the climbers involved contribute many things without which the route would not exist, including gear, time, cleaning, bolting if that is required, belaying etc. These provide material support for the route but do not imply any ownership of the route. The gear we leave behind is considered abondoned property and the route, the crag, and the associated land belong to someone else. Nonetheless, there is a key element in the process of route development that is not accounted for by the general material support, one that we wrestle with in academics all the time, and that is intellectual property or property rights. Development of a new route entails identifying the line, defining where the route will go, identifying the placement of bolts if that is necessary, and solving of crux sequences, each of which comprises an intellectual contribution.

Since we cannot own the route, the minimum acceptable FA citation should recognize both the intellectual and material value added by each climber involved in the creation of the route.
By Tom Hanson
Jul 18, 2008

I climbed a whole lotta drunk before any of you.
I was a whole lotta drunk when I climbed The Witches Tit at Taylors Falls back in about 1977, which predates 1991 by fouteen years!
By Old and Busted
From: Centennial, CO
Jul 18, 2008

RW wrote:

"In the creation of a new route the climbers involved contribute many things without which the route would not exist, including gear, time, cleaning, bolting if that is required, belaying etc. These provide material support for the route but do not imply any ownership of the route. The gear we leave behind is considered abondoned property and the route, the crag, and the associated land belong to someone else. Nonetheless, there is a key element in the process of route development that is not accounted for by the general material support, one that we wrestle with in academics all the time, and that is intellectual property or property rights. Development of a new route entails identifying the line, defining where the route will go, identifying the placement of bolts if that is necessary, and solving of crux sequences, each of which comprises an intellectual contribution."

With that in mind, and this is directed to both of you, how often is my name mentioned with your routes? Maybe 1% at best. We all climbed together for 2-3 times a week for 10 years before my unfortunate hiatus, and most of that time was with drill present. Just remember who was the "exfoliator" -if any hold was ever going to break it would be with me - , who was the biggest anchor for the dreaded pre-GriGri lower slave, who caught shrapnel in the head from the trundle on Little Eiger, who first found the File Drawer, who seconded the just revised Tora Tora Tora, who was part of that first thrash up to Private Idaho? Richard, you didn't even list me as the FFA of Beta Slave even though you belayed me on it. This really hasn't bothered me all that much (it's only sport climbing for fuck's sake) with the far more monumental shit going on in my life during the hiatus, and I love both you guys, but I had to say it.

For the record, and this has nothing to do with this route, or NTM; but the omission of TA's contributions in CCC with the new guide is a significant error since so many others were noted.
By Richard M. Wright
From: Lakewood, CO
Jul 18, 2008

You are absolutely on target, Mike. My appologies. I'll try to fix these where I can.
By 1Eric Rhicard
Jul 18, 2008

Way to step up Richard!

I used to only include those who actually climbed a route. Now I try to include everyone that helped unless the list will add a page to the guidebook. Unless I solo the route my name and that of those who contributed are included. Without belayers a lot of routes would not have been climbed.
By Richard M. Wright
From: Lakewood, CO
Jul 18, 2008

Thanks, Tom!!!! Bob as well. Not trying to make things any more heavy than we can carry. For my own part, every time I see a solo entry I'm going to ask in my own mind something about what was not stated. I can't even begin to count the times that Alan Nelson and I worked on a route together, where if he picked off the FFA first, which happened a lot for some of the hard routes, he posts the line as sole contributor. I'm not sure that I have ever seen a Bob D route with only one member of a team listed. We do get invested in some routes, not very invested in WLD however, and say to ourselves that this here line is "my route". Well, as the big man said: "you're saying it's so don't make so....."
By Tony B
From: Around Boulder, CO
Jul 19, 2008

"Mostly all the new routes I have done has been with a partner...so why wouldn't they be on the FA? Sometimes they worked harder than I did and they didn't even get to complete the climb the day that I redpointed it. I hope you guys settle this and give credit where it is do. "

Bob, I'm going to be somewhat specific here, so as to be clear... An example of the problem with reporting routes in such a way. I'm not slamming you, I'm saying something about differences in style and the potential relevance of accurate reporting of who has or has not climbed a route, rather than just giving proper credit.

I suppose "due credit" here depends on how we define an ascent. One might approach a route quite differently knowing that so-on-and-so-on FA'd Vs just plain couldn't do it, or perhaps didn't even try.

When I read about a particular route at a particular grade, I do pay attention to the FA team. I am, by way of example, leery of Alec Sharp and Derek Hersey 1980s R-rated 5.11s. I stay off of them.

To the contrary, for recent routes, if it is something you've climbed and graded at a particular level, it has always been my experience that I'm going to be able to climb it, and at that, more than likely on-sight it, so I may not take as much caution. You generally place bolts conservatively and don't sandbag.

HOWEVER... there is a recent route up in BoCan that you are listed on that you helped prep, but didn't climb. Rolo was also there but also didn't climb it. Turns out only Matt Samet climbed it.

So... the end effect here, had I not checked, was that there is a route up there that I thought you climbed and rated 5.12, so I figured I could probably do it without much trouble, or perhaps flash it.

But then I find out that Rolo didn't get it and neither did you. And so then I wonder - well, what the heck? A 5.12 that only Matt can climb but you and Rolo can't is not the same as a route you've called 5.12 after doing it. This leads to a different impression of the difficulty of the grade than might be otherwise revealed.

While I understand the logic of applying credit for effort, I stand pretty firmly by the concept that an ASCENT, first or not, involves climbing the route. Perhaps there is some other possible designation for additional contributors?

I would not go telling someone I climbed such-and-such a route if all I did was belay it or clean it because people who know me might say "Well, Bubb did it, so I can do it." (for many, this is a true-ism...) but let's say it was an old Hersey or Sharp route- I'd end up getting someone hurt.

This is why a few FAs I've done only list me- basically my partner couldn't do the moves, and I didn't want to advertise that such-and such did it.
By Tony B
From: Around Boulder, CO
Jul 20, 2008

I didn't say anyone was deceptive- I said there are 2 standards and they can mean 2 different things. The problem with putting down ambiguous info is that it can be misunderstood.

I danced around the following statement which should have been more simply put, but I was trying to avoid a negative reaction. Having already got that now, I'll try to clarify....

In my experience Bob, if you can do it these days, I can too.
If you can't, there is a good chance that I can't either.

So there is a strong reason for being interested if you did or did not climb a particular route. I am lazy and don't work hard for routes except in comps. I wanted to know, in this case, if I should warm up on it, or rap in to pull and patch the bad/spare bolt... as I was asked to consider doing.

I do think that my post was QUITE relevant to the discussion at hand- which became about who to name in FA lists... don't think this is a bad discussion to have on a forum, so long as it can remain civil. At the moment, I think you are over-reacting and trying to make the worst of a fairly relevant and fair point I am raising about styles of reporting FAs.

If you really want to know so much about "how I think", you should read more carefully and quit mis-attributing my motives. Mark Roucco knows why he is not listed on a few FAs as an FA party. I said in text that he helped clean and followed, etc.... We discussed the posting before I posted. So, I know he felt that it was the most accurate way of reporting a route.
By 1Eric Rhicard
Jul 20, 2008

Hey Bob, you might be over reacting a little. I see Tony's point. Who climbed a route can tell you some things about the route. If you see the initials SG and an R after the grade you had better be on your toes as Steve Grossman had nerves of steel. On the other hand if you see another set of initials you can pretty much bank on the fact you will not be putting your life in danger unless your belayer is asleep with an ATC or you forgot to tie in. There are routes that I figure I can do if leader X put them up as Tony mentioned. Knowing who redpointed a route is a little like beta for me too.

As I said, I used to only put the names of those that climbed it but now I include everyone involved unless it takes me so many tries the list of belayers is too large and I forget they saved my life.

On this site the bolter and the climber could be separated. In a guidebook I might say that a line was envisioned and bolted by ... and lead by... but in the end usually the the first person listed is the only one that definitely climbed the route without weighting the rope until the anchor, one or both were clipped.
By Tony B
From: Around Boulder, CO
Jul 21, 2008

Bob said: "Tony if he clean, followed and completed the climb...in my eyes and by most standards..he did the FA..doesn't matter if aided, fell or cried."

What about 'none of the above'- but did help clean the loose choss at the base, taking his climbing time to do so, then belayed and lowered me off in one case ('My Place in the Universe', @ Solaris in BoCan). Does he deserve credit? Absolutely, you can see that I listed it as such.... But should I tell his near-equivalent peer climbers he did climb it, so they can go flog themselves 5 letter grades over their heads on something he declined to attempt to follow? Or would that be a disservice to everyone?

Bob Wrote: "Eric...Matt red-pointed it and rated it 5.12, it was put on MP with grade and bolt count, anchor and some photos...it is a 50 foot route...what more do you need to know?"

Well, Bob, a few things- the first being is that I used an example to illustrate a larger point. This discussion is not limited to a particular climb. What about longer routes such as on the Black Wall or The Diamond.... The point is knowing who did and did not do a route, so as to gauge how hard it may or may not be- this question applies to any route that people climb, not just a particular 50' sport climb.

It matters FAR more on trad routes, as gear is a second factor, and your advice to me was to list a known 5.10 climber as a party to a FA that he declined to follow or TR, as a party to the FA- which might send the wrong message about a hard and potentially dangerous route (ankle twister crux start). That is when it *really* starts mattering.
By 1Eric Rhicard
Jul 21, 2008

It is pretty simple. Bob includes the team and Tony only wants those who actually climb it. Don't think the safety thing is that big an issue Tony as most sport routes are pretty safe and most trad climbers expect and enjoy a bit more danger, and those things can be added in the the description which is usually longer for trad routes. Two ways to do it, but neither is wrong or right. I just think everyone that helps should be listed. If you are reading this and I didn't include your name on something, please just call and remind me instead of starting a thread. Thanks