By GMBurns
Sep 24, 2011
| Zeke wrote: I'm not a natural selection guy, but I would truly have no problem saying I am not responsible. To you, to me, the parents, the reportedly dip shit friends... I have enough bad decisions of my own to go around trying to lay claim to others'. If rescue is asked for (it reportedly wasn't), I would help enact that.
Maybe I didn't say that correctly, (or maybe you understood it perfectly) but what I meant to say was that even if I didn't think I was responsible I'd still feel pretty bad for not trying to prevent a situation that could probably have been avoided. | 
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By C Travis
From Fort Collins, CO
Sep 24, 2011
| Personally, I’m inclined to agree with Crag Dweller, Cruxic, GMBurns, Taylor Ogden (despite the screwy&funny multiple choice thing), et al.
And I think Ryan Williams has a decent perspective if you notice something that's obviously amiss... That is, as long as you (whoever is in the situation) can be honest with yourself about the likelihood of things actually being out-of-whack and heading south for another group like those kids AND whether or not you could really ignore it or could really help.
At least, personally, I would find it very hard (if not utterly impossible) to simply do nothing if/when somebody decks. Aside from personal obligation (personal values - not morals or ethics; big difference), it is an understood/implied expectation (per ICS/FEMA) that someone with adequate medical & incident assessment training be willing (barring potential harm) to assist with an incident until EMT’s show up (and I'm sure there are some of you in that boat with me). But back to the personal aspect; I find it really amazing that so many people could HONESTLY say (to themselves) that they could totally ignore an incident and not feel compelled to mention something to help avoid a potential injury/death. I understand that there’s a strong inclination toward personal liberties here, but really? Kids are clearly being stupid (punching/kicking each other on solo) and you’re totally ok with blowing it off so you don’t have to say anything?
Besides, I don’t think the OP was saying that it had to be a chastising or condescending remark. It could be something as simple as “You guys sure you got everything [in check / under control / managed / whatever idiom you want]?” That may serve as a reminder to them to get their shit straight, or they might be such sick climbers that they're fine. Either way, at least I would’ve settled my mind.
Hell, I’ve pointed out when someone missed double-checking something and also mentioned to someone that they keep an eye on their shitty belay (he was literally turned around, pissing with a slack rope). I wasn't a dick. And they didn’t get pissed or up in my face (albeit different situations). I’ve also had someone tell me to plug more gear. My partner and I knew I was leapfrogging the gear for the tougher section farther up, but I didn’t get all huffy with the guy. I just said “Thanks, I’m OK” and all parties went on their way. And I actually kind of appreciated his concern. Saying something doesn’t always have to be some chest-thumping, holier-than-thou confrontation.
But I dunno. That's all just IMHO. Ignoring an actual/potential serious incident/accident is just foreign to me. But I'm not passing judgement on those who have the testicular fortitude to do so. To each their own.
to Crag Dweller, CascadeKid wrote: that's funny, you speak up to prevent other people from ruining your day - that's not altruism, it's selfishness.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the "ruining my day" thing might be a bit tongue-in-cheek. Plus, the philosophical debate of [true] altruism vs self-motivated relinquishment of personal guilt/responsibility (or even limbic reward) is old hat and it’s been beaten to death in PLENTY of books, journal articles, magazines, and pamphlets. Go read those. And besides, WHO CARES? Does it really matter why he wants to help? I still want that guy around if I pull a Lynn Hill or random solo accident
Ryan Williams wrote: Live in the east!
Don’t tell people that! I like it without a ton of climbers. ;)
By the way, Thailand to Raleigh? Rough break. Stay well. |
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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Sep 24, 2011
| GMBurns wrote: Maybe I didn't say that correctly, (or maybe you understood it perfectly) but what I meant to say was that even if I didn't think I was responsible I'd still feel pretty bad for not trying to prevent a situation that could probably have been avoided.
So, you're going to run up to any impending soloists with a questionnaire to assess their risk? How can you feel badly about what you're not responsible for? That's taking too much on, man. Anybody who gets up 15, 20 feet off the ground while soloing has made their own decision: summit or plummet (or downclimb). |
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By C Travis
From Fort Collins, CO
Sep 25, 2011
| Zeke wrote: So, you're going to run up to any impending soloists with a questionnaire to assess their risk? How can you feel badly about what you're not responsible for? That's taking too much on, man. Anybody who gets up 15, 20 feet off the ground while soloing has made their own decision: summit or plummet (or downclimb).
I'm not trying to get in between or pick a fight but...
Don't you think there's a significant difference between a soloist and the situation described in the OP?
I feel like rational judgement could readily make the differentiation between when to pipe up about a sketchy situation that could be prevented and when somebody's out soloing. At least the guys I know certainly look like they have their wits about them even when their ropes aren't.
Either way, if they tell me to go fuck myself and they deck, is it on me? HELL NO.
Will I help anyway?
YEP, but at least I won't wonder if a simple "you got this?" head-check would've prevented the whole thing.
Again, that's just me. I don't expect it of others and I don't think that anyone else climbing should either. |
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By Copperhead
Sep 25, 2011
| C Travis wrote: . Aside from personal obligation (personal values - not morals or ethics; big difference), it is an understood/implied expectation (per ICS/FEMA) that someone with adequate medical & incident assessment training be willing (barring potential harm) to assist with an incident until EMT’s show up (and I'm sure there are some of you in that boat with me).
The definition of "duty to act" varies from state to state, and your statement is not true in many states and/or situations, at least from a legal perspective. If you have such training, you should be aware of the definition in your area. |
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By C Travis
From Fort Collins, CO
Sep 25, 2011
| Copperhead wrote: The definition of "duty to act" varies from state to state, and your statement is not true in many states and/or situations, at least from a legal perspective. If you have such training, you should be aware of the definition in your area.
Copperhead, what you said is true and I whole-heartedly agree with you, which is why I didn't get into the technicalities of a "duty to act" and related statutes. If I remember correctly, there are only a handful of states (but at least 6 or 7) that actually mandate assisting in incidents by citizens at the scene (misdemeanor offense and considered separate from a true duty to act law). Other than those states, in reality, the legal sense of any sort of duty to act (or do much of anything) ends when you clock out/are out of uniform. Then you get to worry about whether or not to get involved based on protection from the realm of good Samaritan laws (which are generally good though variable in the way they read, as you said; and do NOT cover anyone on the clock). Mark, my above response to Copperhead is in reference to "duty to act" and not "duty to rescue." And my original post discusses neither. Look to my friend's home in Vermont for an example of a duty to assist clause under good Samaritan laws (to which I was referring above by saying "mandate assisting") as related to duty to rescue (per my understanding of the definitions of each). [*edit: my statement to Mark was in reference to a post he deleted stating that there's not a duty to rescue in the US, which there is not except for some situations (e.g. spouses, children or someone for whom you're responsible, cross-over to what we know as "duty to act" for medical/emergency pro's, and if you were the one who caused the f-up). -- again, as I understand it*]
Rather than getting into all that, I chose to simply reference professional and organizational understood/accepted expectations as they were outlined when I read them. These admittedly get trumped by the aforementioned (reflected in the linguistics of the statements). Again, we agree that this is the very reason that people in the medical field should know the statutes in their area. Keep in mind, I'm no lawyer. So please excuse any lack of the appropriate legal language or many of the legal particularities that vary by state/district (I just know broad strokes). But I agree with you that knowing potential legal ramifications (or lack thereof) definitely plays a part. AND I think that there should NOT be laws that mandate rescue by citizens (it would often make a big mess bigger). However...
My point was simply that I was surprised that, among all the people who responded, there weren't more who felt either
a) motivated by ethical expectations of their profession or organization by certification (hence the reference)
OR b) PERSONALLY compelled to do something aside from just ignoring situations.
Not passing judgement either way; just surprised, especially with regard to point b. Maybe I was underestimating the likelihood that many of those people would fall into both camps (thus overestimating the number of people affected by one or the other). |
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By bearbreeder
Sep 25, 2011
| dont climb in squamish for the squeemish
chances are there will be someone soloing beside you in the bluffs, or someone soloing past you on the chief ...
soloers are more common than dogs here ...
during the mountain festival last year, a whole bunch of top notch climbers went and soloed up and down a lot of the climbs in the bluffs ... they were doing this beside those taking courses ... i dont want to say any names, but they are ones you would easily recognize
your day will easily get ruined up here ;) |
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By doligo
Sep 25, 2011
| Jace Mullen wrote: I much more experienced climber POLITELY pointed out that if my follower was to fall, I would be slammed into the wall that my anchor was built on. While I had a strong stance, I realized that I would not have been able to hold him so I moved back to the anchor and was able to bring him up. He did fall, and I was pulled into the anchor.
Ugh, did the more experienced climber also enlighten you about the slack in the system? |
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By GMBurns
Sep 25, 2011
| Zeke wrote: So, you're going to run up to any impending soloists with a questionnaire to assess their risk? How can you feel badly about what you're not responsible for? That's taking too much on, man. Anybody who gets up 15, 20 feet off the ground while soloing has made their own decision: summit or plummet (or downclimb).
I'm not out crusading, nor have I ever actually told a soloist to not climb up (except for one asswipe who got in the way of a beginner leader I was belaying who was testing herself), but I have seen obvious roped beginners start to get off-route from a 5.6 to 5.9R territory (for example), and I have told them what they're getting in to. Some have said that they were fine. OK, fine. No more from me. They know what they're doing (in fact, after he had sent the line we had a good chat about it at the ledge). But others have asked where the 5.6 line went, or for beta on how to get past the crux, or simply thanked me and down-climbed.
A questionnaire isn't needed, and I don't take it as a personal responsibility to save everyone from harm's way. But sometimes obvious is obvious. It's like seeing a British person in the US look right when crossing the street and not seeing the bus coming from the left; not pulling the person back is kind of an insane mindset to me (and I was saved in the UK, btw, for doing the same thing, so I'm grateful).
BTW - feel free to pop in from time to time to say hi. We miss the Cochise TRs. |
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By Jay Samuelson
From Denver CO
Sep 25, 2011
| "when is okay to open your mouth?"
what a silly question, if anyone should know its you! |
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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Sep 25, 2011
| C Travis wrote: I'm not trying to get in between or pick a fight but... Don't you think there's a significant difference between a soloist and the situation described in the OP? I feel like rational judgement could readily make the differentiation between when to pipe up about a sketchy situation that could be prevented and when somebody's out soloing. At least the guys I know certainly look like they have their wits about them even when their ropes aren't. Either way, if they tell me to go fuck myself and they deck, is it on me? HELL NO Will I help anyway? YEP, but at least I won't wonder if a simple "you got this?" head-check would've prevented the whole thing. Again, that's just me. I don't expect it of others and I don't think that anyone else climbing should either.
I see what you're saying and say to do whatever makes you feel right about the situation. My argument is that it's not on you whatsoever whether you do or do not say anything. Maybe you pipe up, they get distracted responding to you and then fall. Then it might be on you a bit.
Lest these hypothetical situations continually get bent to a point where the Society to Protect the Soloists cries "murderer!", of course I and most here would help in a situation that merits it. Like you point out though, most soloists have their shit together. And all of them, signed consent form or no, took on everything that soloing entails once they start climbing sans protection.
The outcome of this particular alleged non-incident, however, is that nobody got hurt. |
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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Sep 25, 2011
| GMBurns wrote: BTW - feel free to pop in from time to time to say hi. We miss the Cochise TRs.
I'm done with fish. |
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By C Travis
From Fort Collins, CO
Sep 25, 2011
| Zeke wrote: I see what you're saying and say to do whatever makes you feel right about the situation. My argument is that it's not on you whatsoever whether you do or do not say anything. Maybe you pipe up, they get distracted responding to you and then fall. Then it might be on you a bit. Lest these hypothetical situations continually get bent to a point where the Society to Protect the Soloists cries "murderer!", of course I and most here would help in a situation that merits it. Like you point out though, most soloists have their shit together. And all of them, signed consent form or no, took on everything that soloing entails once they start climbing sans protection. The outcome of this particular alleged non-incident, however, is that nobody got hurt.
Right on, man. I gotcha. Good points => appreciated, respected, and agreed [not that it matters whether I agree ;)]. |
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By Hmann2
Sep 26, 2011
| Honestly if what someone is doing on the rock makes you uncomfortable SPEAK up! The guidence I have recieved from my elders has saved my ass more than once. Even if they continue to do what they are doing you will have peace of mind knowing that you attempted to alter the situation. It is when people do nothing that tragedies happen, and people are harmed. If more people were to speak up, and actually do something about the things that bother them the world would be a much better place.
Just my ¢2 |
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By GMBurns
Sep 26, 2011
| Zeke wrote: I'm done with fish.
Naw, we were never that bad. The other guys? Sure, but us? No way. Use a different name if you're worried about fish.
BTW - regarding your comment above to C Travis, that's pretty much what I was trying to say, albeit crappily (if I'm allowed to make up a word). |
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By Crag Dweller
From Denver, CO
Sep 26, 2011
| JoeP wrote: CascadeKid, reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit.
+1 |
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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Sep 26, 2011
| GMBurns wrote: Naw, we were never that bad. The other guys? Sure, but us? No way. Use a different name if you're worried about fish. BTW - regarding your comment above to C Travis, that's pretty much what I was trying to say, albeit crappily (if I'm allowed to make up a word).
Eh? I was quoting that Charlie Kaufman film.
I'm sure all you guys do really good work, I just have too many time sinks going to keep that one up.
"Crappily" works for me. |
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By CascadeKid
Sep 26, 2011
| JoeP wrote: CascadeKid, reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit.
and your assumptions are quite poor. I replied to Crag Dweller's post and then addressed JoeP and his question. My post was a satirical question/scenario to JoeP that demonstrated the ridiculousness of this whole debate. It could have been addressed to anyone and wasn't reflective of your/their opinion on the matter... |
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By The Mother Ship
Sep 26, 2011
| I liked the thread about adding a bolt on Double Cross better. |
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By Crag Dweller
From Denver, CO
Sep 26, 2011
| CascadeKid wrote: and your assumptions are quite poor. I replied to Crag Dweller's post and then addressed JoeP and his question. My post was a satirical question/scenario to JoeP that demonstrated the ridiculousness of this whole debate. It could have been addressed to anyone and wasn't reflective of your/their opinion on the matter...
Case in point:
CascadeKid wrote: Personally, I take grave offense when someone tells me how to live my life, as I don't tell anyone else how to live theirs. I wonder how many people take offense when an evangelical tells you how to live your life....
Please show me where I wrote anything that could be interpreted to mean that I would tell people how to live their lives.
I certainly didn't say anything about telling someone how to live his life. I stated that I would say something if, for instance, I saw someone using dangerously bad belay technique. Are you trying to equate my explaining the importance of keeping the brake hand on the rope to telling someone how to live his life?
And, your first reply was to point out that my intentions were selfish rather than altruistic. How could you possibly have interpreted my post to be a claim that my intentions are altruistic? I couldn't have made it more obvious they aren't altruistic short of explicitly stating that. |
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By kBobby
From Spokane, WA
Sep 26, 2011
| There have been quite a few of these threads cropping up lately...
To those of you who say "Natural Selection" etc., etc.: You guys are cooler than the rest of us, but you're still assholes.
Please, if any of you see me making a mistake when I'm out climbing, or skiing, or driving my car, PLEASE tell me. I'm a man. I can take it.
I haven't been playing this climbing game long enough (18 years) to stop making mistakes. Those of you who have, good for you.
Let me give you an example: four years ago, I accidentally unlocked a climbing partner from my belay thinking her locker was my own. Someone else at the belay said, "hey bud, I think you might not want to do that." I wasn't cool enough to slap the shit out of him like some of you would. I thanked him. My partner thanked him. I fucked up, and someone else stepped in and prevented something very bad.
If I see you fucking up, I'm going to say something to you. If this gets your panties in a twist, well that's your problem. I am not talking about soloing, or running it out, or your strange new experimental anchor. I'm talking about when you fuck up. What you do with it after I say something is up to you.
I will add: I have been asked by roped climbers while I was soloing if all was cool. I thanked them, and assured them I was fine. It didn't bruise my ego at all. I'm not as awesome as you. |
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By wankel7
From Dallas TexASS
Sep 26, 2011
| The Bobby wrote: There have been quite a few of these threads cropping up lately... To those of you who say "Natural Selection" etc., etc.: You guys are cooler than the rest of us, but you're still assholes. Please, if any of you see me making a mistake when I'm out climbing, or skiing, or driving my car, PLEASE tell me. I'm a man. I can take it. I haven't been playing this climbing game long enough (18 years) to stop making mistakes. Those of you who have, good for you. Let me give you an example: four years ago, I accidentally unlocked a climbing partner from my belay thinking her locker was my own. Someone else at the belay said, "hey bud, I think you might not want to do that." I wasn't cool enough to slap the shit out of him like some of you would. I thanked him. My partner thanked him. I fucked up, and someone else stepped in and prevented something very bad. If I see you fucking up, I'm going to say something to you. If this gets your panties in a twist, well that's your problem. I am not talking about soloing, or running it out, or your strange new experimental anchor. I'm talking about when you fuck up. What you do with it after I say something is up to you. I will add: I have been asked by roped climbers while I was soloing if all was cool. I thanked them, and assured them I was fine. It didn't bruise my ego at all. I'm not as awesome as you.
Most level headed thing I've read on this forum...looks like you have your ego in check! |
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By Bill C.
From Boulder, CO
Sep 26, 2011
| The Bobby wrote: There have been quite a few of these threads cropping up lately... To those of you who say "Natural Selection" etc., etc.: You guys are cooler than the rest of us, but you're still assholes. Please, if any of you see me making a mistake when I'm out climbing, or skiing, or driving my car, PLEASE tell me. I'm a man. I can take it. I haven't been playing this climbing game long enough (18 years) to stop making mistakes. Those of you who have, good for you. Let me give you an example: four years ago, I accidentally unlocked a climbing partner from my belay thinking her locker was my own. Someone else at the belay said, "hey bud, I think you might not want to do that." I wasn't cool enough to slap the shit out of him like some of you would. I thanked him. My partner thanked him. I fucked up, and someone else stepped in and prevented something very bad. If I see you fucking up, I'm going to say something to you. If this gets your panties in a twist, well that's your problem. I am not talking about soloing, or running it out, or your strange new experimental anchor. I'm talking about when you fuck up. What you do with it after I say something is up to you. I will add: I have been asked by roped climbers while I was soloing if all was cool. I thanked them, and assured them I was fine. It didn't bruise my ego at all. I'm not as awesome as you.
Id climb with you any day of the week |
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By Yarp
Sep 27, 2011
| Yeah...ummmm...OK bobby. Thanks for the pep talk. Who on this board said anything about being cooler than anyone else because they mind their own fucking business? Also thanks so much for relaying your story of how you almost killed one of your climbing partners. Glad they caught your mistake for you. No one on here claimed they don't make mistakes nor did anyone say they personally were not open to constructive criticism. Not sure who you are marshaling the troops against with your little rant there, but from what I can tell, it doesn't really have much to do with this thread.
This thread was about spouting your opinion all over the crag and insisting that total strangers do everything the way you do. If someone wants to go out and kill themselves who the hell are you or I to tell them they can't? Why would you even bother caring? It has no effect on you, or anyone else but the person climbing in a way you don't like.
I offer advice to noobs when they wander up to the rock with a shiny rope and are obviously looking for advice. Hell, I've been interupted by a complete stranger because they wanted to know how to tie into the rope before they took off. I offered a bit of advice, shook my head and left the crag. Don't know what happened after that. Not my concern. |
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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Sep 27, 2011
| The Bobby wrote: There have been quite a few of these threads cropping up lately... To those of you who say "Natural Selection" etc., etc.: You guys are cooler than the rest of us, but you're still assholes. Please, if any of you see me making a mistake when I'm out climbing, or skiing, or driving my car, PLEASE tell me. I'm a man. I can take it. I haven't been playing this climbing game long enough (18 years) to stop making mistakes. Those of you who have, good for you. Let me give you an example: four years ago, I accidentally unlocked a climbing partner from my belay thinking her locker was my own. Someone else at the belay said, "hey bud, I think you might not want to do that." I wasn't cool enough to slap the shit out of him like some of you would. I thanked him. My partner thanked him. I fucked up, and someone else stepped in and prevented something very bad. If I see you fucking up, I'm going to say something to you. If this gets your panties in a twist, well that's your problem. I am not talking about soloing, or running it out, or your strange new experimental anchor. I'm talking about when you fuck up. What you do with it after I say something is up to you. I will add: I have been asked by roped climbers while I was soloing if all was cool. I thanked them, and assured them I was fine. It didn't bruise my ego at all. I'm not as awesome as you.
Well said. One can only hope to climb with level headed people such as yourself. Like someone else said, I'd climb w/ you any day of the week.
Yarp: We can always count on you to go over the top. Personally I appreciate it... really. I'd also climb with you any day of the week. |
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