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By Boissal
From Small Lake, UT
Sep 11, 2012

ZachR wrote:
1. Used 'TAKE in SLACK' instead of 'TAKE' or ''Up rope" when following. 2. Placed tipped out cams. 3. Placed an #2 BD nut on lead (AID only, 2KN printed on it). 4. Had never heard of a 'jesus nut' and seemed to think it needed to be a nut. 5. Belayed me off the anchors with a ATC-XP. 6. Cell phone issue. I corrected 2-5 (forgot about 1) as they were all ignorance. In hindsight I should have called it after #5. Never trust a ginger!

1. And? While the wording is weird, the meaning is obvious... "Take in slack" is very different from "take" in my world.
2. Did he have a choice? I'll place a tipped out cam over no cam if I'm far enough out...
3. I've fallen on a #2 BD. Do you keep running it out past small placements if that's all there is?
4. I've never heard of a Jesus nut.
5, 6. Fair points.

Dude seems like a beater because of #5 and #6. Your other points are moot. Maybe try being less dogmatic?


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Sep 11, 2012
Bocan

It's good to establish communication ground rules...well...on the ground.

Everyone learns commands differently. I prefer "take, up-rope and slack" to keep in simple and easy to understand, but I'll work that out on the ground if I've never climbed with you. When climbers start using phrases like "take up the slack" or whatever it invites trouble. Keep it simple, clear and easy to understand, but work it out before hand especially when it comes to belays and anchors.

Tipped out cams happen...haha to me when necessary.

Everything you mentioned however make a "never climb with you again" partner.


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By Jason Todd
From Ranchester, WY
Sep 11, 2012
Moss

Boissal wrote:
1. And? While the wording is weird, the meaning is obvious... "Take in slack" is very different from "take" in my world. 2. Did he have a choice? I'll place a tipped out cam over no cam if I'm far enough out... 3. I've fallen on a #2 BD. Do you keep running it out past small placements if that's all there is? 4. I've never heard of a Jesus nut. 5, 6. Fair points. Dude seems like a beater because of #5 and #6. Your other points are moot. Maybe try being less dogmatic?


1. Clear and unequivocal communication is definitely a legit concern. There is a reason why sailors use "Aye Aye" and not "All right".
2-3. Sure you can place marginal pro as an exception for that psychological boost, but a habit of it indicates a lack of understanding the systems.
4. If you do any multi-pitch you should know what a "Jesus Nut" is.
Jesus Nut link from John Long's book.

All of Zach's points are valid.


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By Devin Fin
From DURANGO
Sep 11, 2012
dream canyon fun!

BJj told Tony B to scoot! come on dude have some respect... one day you might need help let alone a partner..


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By MAKB
From Front Range, CO
Sep 11, 2012
Metrosexual (7a+)

Tristan B wrote:
Why didn't you just text him for some slack?


hahahahaha
We've finaly figured out an effective way to communicate on long, inconvenient pitches!


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By Sir Wanksalot
From County Jail
Sep 11, 2012

BigJuggsjohnson wrote:
I don't need you or your crew. I can find people to climb with any place and any time never had a problem. Lets put it this way : im that person who people are curious about. Never fails! Don't like the way I am then scoot!


Your attitude is very dangerous. You are completely out of line and apparently unwilling to learn. Tony was basically telling you that experienced climbers are willing to pass on their "craft" because they are experts "journeymen". I would jump at that offer, lady! What do you do... throw mud in his face. Shit... Tony has called me out on more than one occasion and I'm offended by your reply to him.


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By Sir Wanksalot
From County Jail
Sep 11, 2012

Colonel Mustard wrote:
Somebody should start a poll thread to see who would climb with Big Juggs. And why, maybe. The promise of actual big jug viewing, nonstop entertainment, slander material...



Dude, I did that and offered to cancel my account if someone came out of the closet. Sure enough they did, but nobody was willing to cancel so I continue to visit.

Elenor is real


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Sep 11, 2012
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

Devin Fin wrote:
BJj told Tony B to scoot! come on dude have some respect... one day you might need help let alone a partner..

It's OK with me, I totally lectured her and if I saw her near me, I'd be scooting anyway. As the messenger, I guess I had it coming. It doesn't matter what I think of her - the larger concern is how she presents herself to the entire community. In time, we all reap what we sew.

I'm pretty sure she's "not quite right". I'm guessing she's fits into one or another category of borderline personality disorder, but that can't be diagnosed over the net, obviously. It would be nice if she'd either stop presenting herself that way, or if it is true, then maybe she could try a little harder to contain (or at least disguise) that and spare us all the pain of suffering through her problems with her. And that's the message I've tried to deliver softly a few times, but I give up on that approach. I suppose I may be incurring some - karma by doing this, but I can afford a little. As Nathan Hale put it "My only regret is that I have but one life to give for my Country."


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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Sep 11, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

Jesus nut a.k.a. Jesus pin = the retaining nut/pin that holds the main rotor to the mast of a helicopter.

Jesus nut = the main component of a critical system, if this component failed, the system would likely fail.

Jesus nut = a bomber (virtually unrippable) placement of climbing pro. In other words, the cornerstone piece in a system of protection.


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By TheBirdman
From Eldorado Springs, Colorado
Sep 11, 2012

Met a guy on MP once for an afternoon of sport climbing. He says he hasn't been climbing very long. I warm up on a .9 that I've done many times, clipping bolts, minimizing the danger as much as possible and look down regularly to check him. All is well. He follows. A group showed up and we were all leaving draws up so we hadn't had to clean up to this point. Last climb of the day he gets to the anchors and yells, "I'm good." Not knowing what "I'm good" actually means, I yell up, "I'm going to take you off belay so you can rappel and clean." He responds with a thumbs up. I take him off, walk away and start packing my stuff up. No exaggeration, about 10 minutes later he just yells "Take!" Fortunately the other group of climbers had sufficiently distracted me so that I hadn't taken my harness off yet. Not wanting to alarm the climber or anyone else, I ran over to the rope as quickly as possible and put him back on belay. He then said, "Lower when ready." I lowered him without incident. When he got to the ground I asked what was going on up there (the anchors were out of view from the ground). He told me it was his normal practice to "catch his breath" by just hanging out at the chains after hard routes. He did not go in direct, he did not do anything. He literally just sat there hanging on a jug right next to the anchor in order to "catch his breath." When I asked him why he gave me a thumbs up after I told him he was off belay so he could rappel, he just responded, "I didn't really hear you and assumed you had just said something like, Nice job."

I didn't feel like this situation was my fault and talked to the group at the base of the crag who agreed with me as well. That being said, even if it technically, "wasn't my fault" had that guy sat back in his harness, he would have decked from the anchors and I would have been the responsible party. Needless to say, I have not climbed with him again. It's not always the belayer presenting the danger.

The fact is climbing with MP partners is like a blind date and should be treated as such. It takes YEARS with a partner to know them intimately enough before I start feeling completely confident in them and it would be foolish to place that trust in someone you just met. To go multi-pitch trad climbing with someone you met on the internet (See BigJuggs Johnson) without thoroughly vetting their skill level is akin to putting your life in the hands of a completely unknown commodity. According to BigJuggs, she's an expert alpinist that everyone always wants to climb with. Not saying I don't believe it, but actions speak WAY louder than words. That being said, the vast majority of people I've met on MP have been great, competent, and honest about their skill levels. Some have turned into regular partners.

I think the vast majority of the MP community falls into three categories: (1) climbing addicts with boring desk jobs who try to pass the hours in their cubicle by living vicariously through this site (2) hardmen who want to collaborate in terms of hardware, routes, and more difficult climbs, and (3) people who are relatively new to climbing looking for partners, tips, etc. I think there is only a small population of total idiots on here, but they just call so much attention to themselves, it seems like there are more. My point being, even though 99% of people on this site are either going to be completely competent or honest about their lack of competence, you still need to CYA because it only takes one bad decision. Also, as the leader, you are your primary piece of protection. The belayer, the gear, everything else is all secondary (assuming you're not pushing difficulty limits with a trusted belayer). If you don't entirely trust your belayer, it's on you as the climber to avoid a potentially messy situation.


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By Boissal
From Small Lake, UT
Sep 11, 2012

Jon Zucco wrote:
Come on, even I know that and I mostly climb sport.

References to the Vietnam war are lost on me apparently, I had never heard of the term... And yes, I've read Long's climbing bible.
I've also done a fair amount of multipitch climbing and I'm aware of the whole "ripping your first piece and falling on the belay anchor is bad form" thing. I didn't realize I was endangering myself by saying "first piece" instead of "Jeebus nut". Is it less bomber when you call it that way?

Regarding marginal pro, a well-set #2 nut is not marginal. Discarding small placements is what indicates a lack of understanding in the system. Now if the guy was placing tipped out #2s in a wide hand crack with a #3 dangling on his harness or fiddling micros in a crack that gobbles C3s, well, that would be a different story.


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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Sep 11, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

Boissal wrote:
References to the Vietnam war are lost on me apparently, I had never heard of the term...


Fair enough and touche. I suppose I am at an advantage being the son of a naval helicopter pilot. I rescind my previous "come on" statement.

But it is fun trivia none-the-less. Many a climbing term originated from military/sailing terminology... For instance: "flake out the rope", actually originates from "fake out the rope". An old nautical phrase still used aboard ships today.

There. Useless, fun trivia. More gibberish for the gibbering thread.


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By kilonot
Sep 11, 2012

Jon Zucco wrote:
Jesus nut a.k.a. Jesus pin = the retaining nut/pin that holds the main rotor to the mast of a helicopter. Jesus nut = the main component of a critical system, if this component failed, the system would likely fail. Jesus nut = a bomber (virtually unrippable) placement of climbing pro. In other words, the cornerstone piece in a system of protection.


In this context, the third definition. More specifically, a bomber nut or cam placed to prevent a high factor fall directly onto the belayer's harness. There is at least anecdotal evidence that not many people can hold such a fall. You'd place before leaving the belay ledge. Sometimes part of the anchor itself is used.


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By kilonot
Sep 11, 2012

Boissal wrote:
References to the Vietnam war are lost on me apparently, I had never heard of the term... And yes, I've read Long's climbing bible. I've also done a fair amount of multipitch climbing and I'm aware of the whole "ripping your first piece and falling on the belay anchor is bad form" thing. I didn't realize I was endangering myself by saying "first piece" instead of "Jeebus nut". Is it less bomber when you call it that way? Regarding marginal pro, a well-set #2 nut is not marginal. Discarding small placements is what indicates a lack of understanding in the system. Now if the guy was placing tipped out #2s in a wide hand crack with a #3 dangling on his harness or fiddling micros in a crack that gobbles C3s, well, that would be a different story.


I think you must be misunderstanding which nut I'm talking about. The wires on the number 2 black diamond stopper are only rated for 2KN. In the best circumstances you're probably looking at the wires breaking at 3KN (I wonder if anyone has pull tested one). You don't consider that marginal?

This was on the second pitch of tipsy trees. 5.3 G rated.


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By Tim Lutz
Sep 11, 2012

This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.


By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Sep 11, 2012
Bocan

Boissal wrote:
I didn't realize I was endangering myself by saying "first piece" instead of "Jeebus nut".


Hope not...I've always called it a "solid first piece". But then again I haven't been to church in a long time.


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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Sep 11, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

You guys are just fanning the flames. I would really love it if every thread on MP didn't end up being about Juggs.

Administrators: is there an ignore button? Can there be an ignore button, please?


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By Logan Schiff
From NY, NY
Sep 11, 2012

I routinely text with both hands while belaying when my partner is taking forever putting in gear or hesitating at the crux. Just need to make sure you secure the rope with your teeth.


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