What is the ideal, adjustable anchor system

Hi everyone!

Short version:
What is an ideal personal system that has redundancy, quick set up time and is also adjustable?

Long version:
I recently did a trip out to El Potrero Chico and my partner and I had a few discussions about personal anchors while multi-pitching. EPC has everything well bolted, but some of the bolts are pretty high above the ledge which forced me to extend my system many times.

My personal system is a BD nylon runner (120cm, I think) which ends up being about 18 inches on each side after tying a figure 8 at the belay loop. I use this system because it has redundancy and because that 18 inches doesn't get in my way when high stepping. The limitation is that when clipping into something high above me, I end up hanging right over a perfectly good ledge or extending my system with quick draws. I can sustain one side of my system failing but it is inconvenient at anchors much higher than the ledge (which seems to happen a lot at EPC).

My partner used a Metolius PAS. This looks pretty cool because he can adjust the length of the system by changing the loop being used in the strap. The downside is that he is connecting a single strap to both bolts in the belay station (assuming bolted anchors). If his single strap fails at a point in the strap before the first bolt, his entire system fails. It seems he sacrifices redundancy for convenience.

So, we arrive at my question (see short version above): Is there a system that is redundant (can sustain a single point of failure), quick to set up (think about being pumped out when you reach the anchors) and has an adjustable length (ex: bolt distance from a ledge)?

Note: I don't think using the rope itself on clove hitches is good because it takes much longer than just clipping a sling with biner to the bolt. Remember, we're talking about bolted anchors.

It's always cool talking gear and climbing. Thanks for your helpful input.

On a multipitch, I'd say you should be building anchors, not using a PAS to clip in to the bolts. Use the PAS or a runner as a rap sling, but not as a substitute for anchor-building.

There's a good reason people say to clove hitch in with the rope to an anchor. Regardless of the few extra seconds it takes.

Edit: Building an anchor at a two-bolt station with a double-length runner takes about a minute.

How are you bringing up the second, when you are using a PAS instead of an anchor?

The rope.

Marc801 wrote:The rope.

Dis.

PAS to a single bolt/piece for initial anchoring (sling works too but not really adjustable), build your anchor, then clove the rope to it. This gets you in quick, is adjustable, and brings minimal gear.

or you could clove to the 2nd bolt, like above.

FWIW I like the Sterling Chain Reactor over the metolius PAS. It is rated to hold factor 2 falls, and is more dynamic than the dyneema PAS. Cheaper too!

Henri Alexander wrote:Note: I don't think using the rope itself on clove hitches is good because it takes much longer than just clipping a sling with biner to the bolt. Remember, we're talking about bolted anchors.

It really doesn't take "much longer".
Arrive at anchor.
Attach a draw to one bolt.
Clip rope to draw. Now you won't fall below the last bolt if you're totally pumped or do something clumsy.
Clip draw or biner to second bolt, clove rope to second bolt, tie knot of your choice and attach to first bolt/draw.
Total elapsed time: <<20sec, perhaps less than 10sec.

You want the ideal, adjustable anchor system but you don't want the ideal, adjustable anchor system? You have your answer (clove hitch the climbing rope), but for whatever reason are digging for a better answer?

First of all, what your friend is doing is dumb, for the reasons you listed. A PAS is not designed to be clipped to both bolts; aside from the lack of redundancy at the attachment point to your harness, this would also require choking up super close to the bolts and would be super awkward. If you really love your PASs, get 2 and clip each independently to a different bolt. What others suggested about clipping a single PAS (or QuickDraw) and then clove hitching rope is better, though. In the event of catastrophic failure, you want to be connected to dynamic, not static, goods. You also can extend a clove hitch as far as you need to, putting you comfortably on the ground. If your concern is time, it sounds like you just need to get better at tying cloves...get a cheap piece of rope and practice tying them while you're watching TV. A clove hitch should take about 5 seconds to tie and be doable with 1 hand. It's also possible to clip a rope and then retroactively tie a clove hitch without unclipping.

Edit: here you go:

splitterchoss.com/2013/06/1…

Thanks for the replies. To be more clear: I always clip in with my system and then pull out the belay system (long sling with a figure 8. Two ends connect to the bolts and then the master point has the munter hitch or guide ATC) and clip that in separately. I like that because it keeps us separate, they are both redundant (in themselves and from each other) and I can set those up in about negative 17 seconds.

In reply to using the rope: Ya, I should probably get savvy using the cloves but it isn't what I'm used to so it's like having to relearn everything for multipitch. I feel dialed in so the allure to change isn't there.

The PAS: Yes, I agree my partner's PAS application is not recommended.

Recap: I am just wondering if there is something else out there. Is there something else "cool" that I'm not aware of? It sounds like you guys vote for the rope with cloves. If so, that's cool. If there is something else, I'm all ears.

Thanks again for the insight.

Henri Alexander wrote:In reply to using the rope: Ya, I should probably get savvy using the cloves but it isn't what I'm used to so it's like having to relearn everything for multipitch. I feel dialed in so the allure to change isn't there. The PAS: Yes, I agree my partner's PAS application is not recommended. Recap: I am just wondering if there is something else out there. Is there something else "cool" that I'm not aware of? It sounds like you guys vote for the rope with cloves. If so, that's cool. If there is something else, I'm all ears.

The "something else out there" has been provided...

Henri Alexander wrote:It sounds like you guys vote for the rope with cloves.

There it is ;-)

Henri Alexander wrote:Is there something else "cool" that I'm not aware of?

Define "cool".

A one-handed clove might impress your climbing partners and takes a few seconds.

youtube.com/watch?v=G00AYtW…

One could:

• Have a pretied quad - rockandice.com/video-galler…
• In a similar fashion have a pretied sling (sliding X with load limiter knots)
• Use a long pas, marketed here as a 'anchor chain' - metoliusclimbing.com/anchor…
• Or use a pas banshee style - people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/hig… (it's well worth going through that entire book if you haven't seen it before)
• Or a 'adjustable anchor sling' - edelrid.de/en/adjustable-be…

(Some of these things aren't redundant' or are often used in a non-redundant fashion. I'm OK with that if that thing is in good condition.)

Using the rope can make things a bit more awkward when block leading.

Henri Alexander wrote:Thanks for the replies. To be more clear: I always clip in with my system and then pull out the belay system (long sling with a figure 8. Two ends connect to the bolts and then the master point has the munter hitch or guide ATC) and clip that in separately. I like that because it keeps us separate, they are both redundant (in themselves and from each other) and I can set those up in about negative 17 seconds. .

My opinion: If you can do all this in negative 17 seconds, you can learn to clove just as fast. Seriously, it's an extremely useful hitch. You're belaying on a munter and complaining about the amount of time it takes to clove?

My preference is a pre-tied double length sling with limiter knots and that's my anchor. Takes negative 17 seconds. I feel the limiters are more versatile than a pre-tied 8 to account for the difference in bolt placements on the anchors.

Cloves, man. Learn em.

Was just about to suggest a quad! Can be pretied for 2 bolt anchors, is self equalizing, and has lots of stuff to clip if you're bringing up a big group and are worried about clutter.

Not to beat a dead horse, but you can also clove hitch into your master point (or shelf) and still belay directly off of the masterpoint. The beauty of the clove hitch is that it is easy to adjust and built from the rope, so you can be as far away from the anchor as you want (within reason).

pre-tied quad here as well if expecting bolted belays, I clove into a locker on 2 of the strands and the 2nd will clove into a locker on the other 2 when they arrive. This allows us to switch places if need be without creating a tangled mess.

Clove hitch 4eva eva

There is no ideal in any aspect of climbing it is all a compromise.

It's like granny's panties... depends.

+1 for clove hitch

When sport climbing or doing climbs with bolted anchors I use a pre-tied quad slung over my shoulder like a regular sling, with a wire gate on either end. Upon arriving at the anchor I can grab one of the carabiners and it's very easy to clip it to a bolt quickly. You could even leave the locker clipped into the master point and clove to it, one less step and one less link in the system.
If I'm pumped stupid or multi-pitch climbing I put a quick draw on a bolt and clip the rope into it. This provides protection while building the anchor, a redirect when pulling up the rope, and the first piece of protection for the leader as they start the next pitch.
For rappels a four foot sling is a go to for me. It's also multi-purpose. I have also been experimenting with the Petzl Connect Adhust, I was given one a few weeks ago. It is very convenient, but not multi-purpose.
Mock up the transitions on the ground at home to see where you can cut steps and materials out of he system. It's worth the practice.

I used 2 Purcell Prusik for my anchor when I was at EPC. Very adjustable, cheap and somewhat a dynamic catch since the prusik slips a little.

Purcell is an option, if you make it out of dynamic cord it eliminates some of the issues with shock loading a PAS. An issue with any tether is that you wind up carrying extra gear. Not going to kill you, but on multi pitch routes it's preferable to carry less weight and bulk.

Learn how to use the rope.

John Wilder wrote:Clove hitch and a Chain Reactor (Sterling's Nylon version of the PAS) for something you're rappelling since you'll want a PAS style tether anyway. Clip in with the PAS, then clove to the other bolt with the rope. Done. Hang your belay device off one of the bolts (back it up with something to the other bolt if you like), belay. This way, you're only down two carabiners. If you're on bolts in general, i'm a fan of the super 8 or two cloves depending on the stance. Gear, i use a ton of different methods depending.

This 100%. All the other stuff mentioned is more complicated. Throwing a clove hitch on the 2nd bolt with your rope is only a few seconds slower than having a dedicated 2nd sling and vastly better.

If you're block leading, the Banshee system with a Belay sling is superior to quads, cordalettes etc. Get to anchor, clip into bolt with PAS. Setup Banshee. Add clove hitch rope for redundancy if desired. When partner gets to anchor the banshee provides a clear and already setup master point. You can escape easily for the next lead and they are quickly anchored into a clean system. Those that complain it's a "specialty piece" miss the point that you KNOW you'll need it at each belay. It's far different than bringing a specialty piece you may never use. Farting around with tied 48in slings or bulky quads or Purcells is less polished for the same purpose. In certain circumstances, "versatility" is LESS efficient.

Unless you're at a free hanging rap anchor AND you're PAS is beat to crap, there's not a lot of reason for a completely redundant 2nd attachment system. The vast majority of the time, the PAS at a rap anchor is there simply to keep you tethered in if you really mess up. You're likely standing on a ledge and barely weighting the thing. If the bolts are "iffy", throw a QD on #2 and add to your PAS. Only in the uncommon circumstances of iffy bolts and free hanging would you want two independent tethers to the bolts. In that case, throw your PAS on one and use a sling into your belay loop for the other bolt. [here's the case where specialty pieces are NOT a good choice]

Learn the clove hitch. Period.

I clove hitch to my nipple ring usually, its up higher than my belay loop so its pretty comfy with a high up anchor.