What have sport climbers done wrong?

Some things like chipping holds, glue on holds and over bolting might seem normal in a particular area but is it right to export those ethics to other areas where there are very few climbers?
People have forced a twisted version of their 'sport climbing' ethics onto innocent people even whole countries. Americans and French went to Thailand and India armed with hammers, chisels, paint, glue and power drills to ‘manufacture’ routes with those tools. Trad climbers went travelling with cams and 'nuts' and we also tried to ‘inflict our ethics’ onto others but at least we didn’t change the rock. Instead we did routes that could be less certain, dangerous, scary or even fatal for the would be repeaters. Who is more irresponsible? The glue addicted, grade obsessed sporters or the adrenalin junkie fear addicted traddists?
Whichever side you’re on if you’re interested in the whole story of what happened in the battle of the bolts in Asia check it sometime.
To bolt is NOT to be

Wow. Let me get some popcorn. This ought to be good.

it all started with Neo-Colonialism and continues through shitty self-important entitled millennials. discuss.

Colonialism and 'ownership' of rocks by westerners with complete disregard for local people and their feelings.
Go and climb a rock, you have changed that rock as much as you would a footpath by walking down it. Sport climb a rock and you have changed it forever.

matt snyder wrote:it all started with Neo-Colonialism and continues through shitty self-important entitled millennials. discuss.

• golf clap*

Sport climbing is colonialism. Only alpine climbing, like what they do on Everest, really respects the local populations.

I bet this guy pees at the base of routes.

Pil Jungli wrote:There were all types of cracks, walls and arêtes coming to hand up to E6 with so much potential and bolts just didn’t feel right. I thought it looks very much like climbers from other countries are trying to own the rocks in India. To claim them as being more special for us than anybody else seemed arrogant and superior.

I find it quite interesting that there's absolutely no sense of irony in condemning climbers for applying a set of ethics from their homeland. French climbers are condemned, American climbers are condemned, German climbers are condemned, and yet the author the goes and commits the exact same sin he accuses bolters and chippers of -- trying to force British ethics onto a crag he is only a visitor to, instead of establishing a local ethic by *working with the locals* .

I know a V6 boulder problem in NC that someone glued a hold back on after it broke and turned it into a V3 problem. This isn't the ethic for the area but I keep forgetting to take my hammer there and fix it.

Tradjic Yogurt said
the author the goes and commits the exact same sin he accuses bolters and chippers of -- trying to force British ethics onto a crag he is only a visitor to, instead of establishing a local ethic by *working with the locals* .

I tried to force ethics on the place because that's what I believed was best not just for me but for the whole area. Because I felt that natural was the way forward I tried to make the place adopt a trad/solo/boulder only rule like there is at many crags in the UK. The locals had not the first flying clue about why people would want to climb rocks just for fun and I thought it looked a bit wrong if they only saw bolts, glue, chipping and paint. They would surely assume that's always what climbing has to be like.
I wanted to show them that climbing doesn't have to be sanitised like that and can be done in a non intrusive natural way. Especially with it being a sensitive place with UNESCO and the Geological society of India looking on and all the ancient protected ruins. It was just asking for trouble to make a sport area in front of them.
If you don't change how the rocks look it's much harder for them to give a good reason for climbing to be banned.
I suppose they might say "who is going to clean the ground when you fall off at the top?" but it would be hard for them to stop you on environmental grounds.

Sure there is more pure and raw elements involved in trad and bouldering, and having bolts and hangars on the wall is distasteful. However, there are simply routes that could not be climbed if it were not for bolting. Bolting is the norm, introducing that to an area where climbing is not largely popular may have been a good choice seems how it is the safest. This would be a different story if it were Czech areas where they have strict rules on trad strictly using knots and no metal against the rock ever.

To the OP — you can't "force" your style on anyone. You can only encourage what you would like to see. Climb according to your standards, and be content that you are setting an example that others may choose to follow. Keep in mind that it takes time and a lot of proud ascents to earn that kind of respect, and even then your style may not catch on in an area. At some level you will have to accept that different people climb for different reasons. When I was a teenager, I climbed with something to prove to myself. For a few years I was really into onsight soloing. It was always a vision quest. I still aspire to vision quests, but not every weekend. After years of the workforce grind, physical ailments and life problems that continually make it harder to find a climbing day, let alone a climbing getaway, I enjoy sport climbing a lot — it's nice to not fear for my life on crumbly rock with questionable gear every time I tie in. I just need a release from greater stresses, you know? Conversely, after years of sport climbing I've become stronger and my techniques are more well rounded, which means that when I do get on a scary pitch I have more fun because I have more control. And lastly, consider that not all rock is best enjoyed the same way. That choss heap that's only slightly better than dried mud, but has natural pockets and a steep angle? Reinforce those pockets with glue and put in some long, fat glue-ins, and voila! Now you have an enjoyable sport climb close to home (because most of us are not lucky enough to live in the Sierra batholith). Unless you think aid climbing that same mud wall with ski goggles and genuine fear for your life is more fun, in which case you will have to understand that most of us will never agree with you. Get over it and climb on. Don't presume to know what's best for everyone and every place, and then force your ethic like a religious missionary. All you can do is set your own example. Peace be with you.

Tradgic Yogurt wrote: I find it quite interesting that there's absolutely no sense of irony in condemning climbers for applying a set of ethics from their homeland. French climbers are condemned, American climbers are condemned, German climbers are condemned, and yet the author the goes and commits the exact same sin he accuses bolters and chippers of -- trying to force British ethics onto a crag he is only a visitor to, instead of establishing a local ethic by *working with the locals* .

I don't find it interesting, I find it hypocritical, egotistical and smug; harkening back to the British colonialism and expansion based attitude still visible today. 'Ooh, here's this nice place I've 'discovered' where I can do whatever I want. If someone else shows up or (god forbid) the locals object, I'll just throw a tantrum because clearly I'm right and these ignorant foreigners don't know what's good for them or their home!'
To unflinchingly believe that your way of introducing a practice or lifestyle to a new, foreign place is any better than someone else's based solely on your personal opinions is so self righteous thats it's almost embarrassing.
The 'But I was here first" attitude betrays a schoolyard mentality that isn't based in reality as people from all over the world have been traveling to Hampi for centuries upon centuries.
I've been to Hampi, I agree that bolts and chipping would mar the beautiful landscape, but to think that my opinion is the only correct one and that I can enforce it on an entire culture is lame and demeaning.
Now, if Hampi HAD become a sport climbing mecca (hard to envision, all things considered) maybe the Gov't. would see the lucrative potential and wouldn't be using UNESCO as an excuse to kick all the business folks and 'squatters' off the island.

The cunning use of flags

youtube.com/watch?v=b6RhIx6…

Simplyput said
To unflinchingly believe that your way of introducing a practice or lifestyle to a new, foreign place is any better than someone else's based solely on your personal opinions is so self righteous thats it's almost embarrassing.

I really didn't like what I was seeing with the bolting and thought it was leading the place in the wrong direction. Yes of course I believed it should stop and now some of the locals have started climbing they are really happy that it turned out to be a no bolting area. Perhaps you should and go talk to them and ask them what's the best style for the place and what are the best routes and problems. A Spanish guy who tried who tried to put bolts two years back found himself surrounded by fifteen people and forced to leave Hampi.
If it had become a sport climbing destination it would have been banned, plain and simple. Is that what you would wish? Of course not. It's the bolters you should be so angry with not me as it nearly happened! Those areas at sister stone and Hemakuta that were bolted and painted are banned now.

Now, if Hampi HAD become a sport climbing mecca (hard to envision, all things considered) maybe the Gov't. would see the lucrative potential and wouldn't be using UNESCO as an excuse to kick all the business folks and 'squatters' off the island.

Simply ridiculous. There are 1000 rooms in Hampi mostly on the island which are all full in the season. That's more 'lucrative potential' than climbers could ever be. It's exactly because the government have seen this lucrative potential that they want the guest houses demolished. The people will still come to Hampi but they will have to stay in places that the government in cohoots with the biggest business people of the area will get the money from. You may have visited but you didn't understand the situation properly.

J Bird, this is off topic, but in the Czech Republic glue-in bolts are becoming common at places like Labak, even if they remain somewhat sporty. It is also the case that most czech climbers climb in Germany, Austria and Italy, as few really want to deal with Czech sandstone horror shows. In a week of climbing we saw only 3 other parties at these places.

As for sport climbing in the less developed part of the world, it is my experience that as long as you pay for your camp site, food & beer, the locals really don't give a shit.

I am not talking about hampi by the way, but in generality.

Pil Jungli wrote: Simplyput said To unflinchingly believe that your way of introducing a practice or lifestyle to a new, foreign place is any better than someone else's based solely on your personal opinions is so self righteous thats it's almost embarrassing. I really didn't like what I was seeing with the bolting and thought it was leading the place in the wrong direction. Yes of course I believed it should stop and now some of the locals have started climbing they are really happy that it turned out to be a no bolting area. Perhaps you should and go talk to them and ask them what's the best style for the place and what are the best routes and problems. A Spanish guy who tried who tried to put bolts two years back found himself surrounded by fifteen people and forced to leave Hampi.

I have spoken with Hampi locals regarding bolts. They're feelings do not line up with yours.
I was also there when the Spanish guy got run out of town and it was NOT because of placing bolts.
It was because he had a disrespectful attitude towards the locals in carrying out what he felt was correct ethically. It had nothing to do with bolts and everything to do with a white (OK, olive) mans superiority complex.

Pil Jungli wrote:Simply ridiculous. There are 1000 rooms in Hampi mostly on the island which are all full in the season. That's more 'lucrative potential' than climbers could ever be. It's exactly because the government have seen this lucrative potential that they want the guest houses demolished. The people will still come to Hampi but they will have to stay in places that the government in cohoots with the biggest business people of the area will get the money from.

You really think Israeli hippie trash tourists (those that inhabit your 1000 room count) are more lucrative than middle class sport climbers from Western Europe and America? I don't. If Hampi had been turned into a sport climbing mecca, people with money (instead of hash bongs) might have been rolling through and the GOV't. might not be so disgusted with the level of trash on the island in season...
My argument isn't that Hampi should be grid bolted (I went so far as to mention this in my pervious post) but rather that you're decision as to what is right and proper is no better than any other foreigner coming to Hampi and the fact that you truly believe you are a savior of sorts is alarming.
Also the actions you took are pretty questionable: having someone else write a false banning of bolts because you were too scared to and then call it 'cunning' ? Come on, man...
Do I think Hampi should be bolted? Once again, no.
Do I think I have any right telling others what they can and can't do in an area I have done nothing for besides put up enigmatic boulder problems? Decidedly, no.

The only time I was in Hampi was about 30yrs ago and I had no idea at the time about any climbing there. But I thought it looked like it would be a great place to boulder, if only I had any shoes.

Too bad to hear that it's being bolted and painted. It was a cool place just to hang out and seems like bouldering without all the sport climbing silliness would be more in tune with the place.

It would be good to hear what Indian climbers think of all us Westerners developing the area for sport. The sport development does sound terribly like Manifest Destiny...I love the story about the Germans and their drill that refused to work. I hope they took a lesson from it...what we want is not always what should be.

simplyput

Are you really saying that all the people staying on the island are all 'hippy trash' and don't spend money? Mowgli, Lakshmi and others are full of your beloved 'middle class' paying a lot of money for everything. I don't why you think you are so superior to those people but I'm sure that your 'middle class climbers' create just as much garbage as anybody else if not more.
When I asked Vikas (Jerry) about the Spanish guy he said it all started because he wanted to bolt Rishimuk. That's what he said! Am I not to believe him?

Do I think I have any right telling others what they can and can't do in an area I have done nothing for besides put up enigmatic boulder problems? Decidedly, no.

I wasn't going around telling people not to bolt. Not at all. All I did was continue doing trad routes and boulders. The note in the book was done after somebody doing one of the sport routes got whistled down by security guards so in a way it was half true. It felt like if they being told not to climb that's a clear sign that sport routes are not welcome.
What is meant by 'done nothing for the area except put up enigmatic boulder problems' I tried to find the best rocks to climb that I could. Were the problems I did not to your liking? Finding and doing classic problems IS doing something for the area. What else could I have been doing. Teaching children, well I've done quite a bit of that as well.

Tradjic Yogurt said:
the author the goes and commits the exact same sin he accuses bolters and chippers of -- trying to force British ethics onto a crag he is only a visitor to, instead of establishing a local ethic by *working with the locals* .

Pil Jungli said:
I tried to force ethics on the place because that's what I believed was best not just for me but for the whole area. Because I felt that natural was the way forward I tried to make the place adopt a trad/solo/boulder only rule like there is at many crags in the UK. The locals had not the first flying clue about why people would want to climb rocks just for fun and I thought it looked a bit wrong if they only saw bolts, glue, chipping and paint. They would surely assume that's always what climbing has to be like. I wanted to show them that climbing doesn't have to be sanitised like that and can be done in a non intrusive natural way. Especially with it being a sensitive place with UNESCO and the Geological society of India looking on and all the ancient protected ruins. It was just asking for trouble to make a sport area in front of them. If you don't change how the rocks look it's much harder for them to give a good reason for climbing to be banned. I suppose they might say "who is going to clean the ground when you fall off at the top?" but it would be hard for them to stop you on environmental grounds.

-----

If you think that over the long-term this could be a sustainable climbing and ecotourism destination by developing with your preferred style and ethics, shouldn't you try to persuade them that will bring in more money than German or French ethics? These people live there - they are the ones who have the right to select ethics for the area's development, and unlike you, they are always there and can really make an ethical platform stick.

Tradgic Yogurt

It's exactly the right idea. But sadly the people who started all the guest houses are being evicted by force by govt and UNESCO and will be relocated somewhere that tourists or climbers don't want to stay. They won't even be there soon. But all is not lost. I climbed in an area 3 or 4 km away for some years and went to the little 500 people village some days to get water and have some tea. They had never seen a tourist there and certainly didn't know about rock climbing but were nice to me. Then I realized the place was now sustaining itself only because of selling wood and illegal rock blasting and selling of the boulders.

If we could help them start a sustainable guest houses for climbers which would get them some money it would at the same time slow down the stone cutting and blasting. They could learn some English and other things from the foreigners and also some new sustainable ways of managing renewable power and transport at the same time. If it worked out some would start climbing and guiding also. The hills over there are being ravaged by tree cutting and blasting which is sad to see. Some home grown environment groups are interested and have created a big nature sanctuary area so there is hope.