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What do you call this autoblock hitch?
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By DannyUncanny
From Vancouver
Oct 18, 2011

Someone showed me this one a long time ago. It functions similarly to a Garda hitch, but I can't remember the name. Anyone know? I've tried to draw it as best I can.

autoblock hitch
autoblock hitch


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Oct 18, 2011
El Chorro

Is a garda hitch the same thing as an alpine clutch?

I dunno what that is a picture of... never seen it before. Nice drawing though.


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By steitz
From midcoast, maine
Oct 18, 2011

That's a black wall hitch, it's not an autolocking hitch to the best if my knowledge, though it could conceivably work as one the way you've drawn it. I'll go test it out.

We use it in sailing primarily for tuning the rigging on traditional sail boats. You can use it to attach block tackle systems or comealongs to any rigging system involving lanyards and dead eyes for tensioning.

The lower carabiner is superfluous I think. You might be thinking of the alpine clutch and maybe misdrew it? blackwall hitch


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By Wannabe
Oct 18, 2011

There is a way to build that hitch with the two carabiners so that it becomes autolocking. Its in a book titled, "Climbing knots" or something akin to that. I'm at work so that's the best I can do for now. The two carabiners should be sitting next to each other with one "leg" of the hitch outside them and the other inbetween them so that when weighted on the one leg it locks off. I'm terrible at explaining this...


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By brenta
From Boulder, CO
Oct 18, 2011
Cima Margherita and Cima Tosa in the Dolomiti di Brenta.  October 1977.

I know this as "Edi" or "Lorenzi." The left strand is the load strand, and, unlikely as it may seem from the drawing, it is autoblocking. The way I've learned it, from the configuration in your drawing, you finish the set up by clipping the two strands with the lower biner.


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By DannyUncanny
From Vancouver
Oct 18, 2011

brenta wrote:
I know this as "Edi" or "Lorenzi." The left strand is the load strand, and, unlikely as it may seem from the drawing, it is autoblocking. The way I've learned it, from the configuration in your drawing, you finish the set up by clipping the two strands with the lower biner.


I'll have to try that when I get home, but it certainly still works with the lower biner just hanging there. I couldn't find any references to Edi or Lorenzi anywhere though. Do you remember where you learned it from?


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By steitz
From midcoast, maine
Oct 18, 2011




Google the blackwall hitch if you want to learn more about the knot.


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By DannyUncanny
From Vancouver
Oct 18, 2011

steitz wrote:
Google the blackwall hitch if you want to learn more about the knot.


Yeah I googled it and found no mention of carabiners or autoblocking. While it is obviously a similar knot, it doesn't have the same construction or purpose. The key thing here is the second carabiner which helps keep everything in place.

I tried Brenta's suggestion of clipping the strands and it makes things much more secure but adds a lot of friction. I found what worked best was to only clip the load strand through the bottom carabiner. This makes it impossible to flip the knot and it still keeps the friction down.


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By Peter Pitocchi
Oct 18, 2011
Pete belays 2nd pitch Little corner

You can make a munter autoblock with a second biner. Is that what you are looking for? Climbing magazine showed this in a tech tip.think


p.s. here it is

www.climbing.com/print/techtips/tech_tips_trad_-_munter_magi>>>


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By kBobby
From Spokane, WA
Oct 18, 2011

I played with this a bit.

Danny, the way you have drawn it, the hitch is essentially a blackwall hitch. It is more difficult to capsize than a simple blackwall, but it is capsizable nonetheless.

With just the load strand through the lower carabiner, I was likewise able to capsize this hitch.

With both strands through the lower carabiner, I was unable to capsize the hitch, but there is a LOT of friction in this setup.


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By DannyUncanny
From Vancouver
Oct 18, 2011

Here, I messed around with it a bit clipping the load strand into the lower carabiner, and in this configuration I couldn't get it to slip or unravel at all no matter how much I messed up the knot. It seems like it's a little bit important to have a small carabiner on top. With a bigger HMS carabiner, there was less of a corner to pinch the rope up against, and if you shook it around you could get a slow slipping.

Here's what I mean. Try it out with a small upper carabiner and see if you can get it to slip.

real version
real version


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By kBobby
From Spokane, WA
Oct 18, 2011

Yeah, that's how I set it up; but I used an HMS for the upper carabiner. I just tried it with two smaller lockers and was not able to capsize it. It also runs pretty smoothly. I would probably never belay a person using this hitch, but I might try hauling with it.


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By kBobby
From Spokane, WA
Oct 18, 2011

Searching for "Lorenz Hitch", I found this page. It is in Japanese, but it has a picture of the hitch in question. (Search for Garda Hitch within the document).


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By brenta
From Boulder, CO
Oct 18, 2011
Cima Margherita and Cima Tosa in the Dolomiti di Brenta.  October 1977.

DannyUncanny wrote:
Do you remember where you learned it from?

It's in a handbook published by the Italian Alpine Club. If you google "nodo edi lorenzi" (nodo is Italian for knot and hitch) you'll get several PDF files with illustrations.


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By steitz
From midcoast, maine
Oct 18, 2011

I think what you're tying is a black wall hitch, even with the extra carabiners. The basic physics of the knot and the friction is the same, though the extra carabiners help keep it sorted. It's pretty cool.


A safer alternative for setting up an autolock with minimal gear would be an autolocking munter, as mentioned above.


It is cool to see a nautical origin knot adapted for climbing use though. Who knows, maybe it'll catch on like the italian-cum-Munter has.


EDIT-

brenta wrote:
It's in a handbook published by the Italian Alpine Club. If you google "nodo edi lorenzi" (nodo is Italian for knot and hitch) you'll get several PDF files with illustrations.



Good tip. Those .pdf's are super cool. I see what you are talking about now. It looks like both strands need to be clipped through the lower carabiner. I wonder what the origin of the knot is? I'd bet anything that just like virtually everything else in rigging and rope work it's adapted from a nautical origin.


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By TheIceManCometh
From Albany, NY
Oct 18, 2011
Chiller Pillar, Adirondacks

I tried it with the lower carabiner clipped through the strand of rope going to the climber. Works pretty well. I only wonder how you'd lower a climber with weight on the rope, say the second is hanging below an overhang and can't get back to the wall.

I'll probably stick with my ATC but it's good to know these knots in case you drop or forget your belay device.


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