VOTE NO ON ACs

There have been a rash of accounts being opened lately with pseudonyms – mostly for the purpose of trolling. Posting as an anonymous coward is nothing new on the Internet, although I feel that it degrades the quality of a site like Mountain Project. Unlike chat sites like Yahoo Messenger, MP deals with some very serious topics, like injuries and accidents, for example. People are traumatized when their loved ones are hurt or killed in climbing accidents, and I feel that unnamed trolls who use those threads for disruptive purposes, and without name-accountability, should not be allowed to do so.

This has happened twice in the past few days with a poster who goes by the pen name Douche’. This person is clearly here to troll and insight ill will, and he has had no problem using threads like Preston’s to do so. He also started a nonsense thread last night, in the Injuries & Accidents section, wherein he claimed to be a go-to search & rescuer. His assertions were completely off the wall, and a few of us pointed it out in no uncertain terms. The thread was gone this morning. I don’t know if he removed it or if the administrators tagged it first. Thank you if you did.

I understand that some people like to quietly lurk, and feel shy about using their own names, although I strongly believe that if you are going to participate in thread discussions, voice your opinion, criticize others for theirs, make claims about yours or other’s climbing activities, and make accusations about people's character, then you should be name-accountable for your words.

I participate on another site, most of the membership of which is made up of industry professionals from my profession. The site admins are very strict about enforcing the real name rule. Your account will be immediately closed if your real name is not used. That site still has its fair share of spirited discussion, although posters think twice about partaking in malicious trolls and accusations against other members, because their name makes them accountable for their words. It is a self-enforcing system that works. And people who sign up under fake names like Frank Johnson, etc., and then troll and insight trouble, are soon found out, because other people from the geographical area posted in that person’s profile will usually know that there is no Frank Johnson who climbs, etc. in their home areas. Consequently, I feel that requiring a real name and home location would help to eliminate much of the disruptive trolling.

Just my 2 cents.

I would tend to agree with Ken. Put your real name up and have the guts to stand by what you say. I've notice the 'phony name' users are rude, and usually post useless stuff. Let's keep it real, eh?

5. Mountain Project Membership

"Mountain Project membership is available to anyone 13 years of age or older who truthfully and accurately registers all required information (including a legitimate email address) and obtains a unique Mountain Project Username and Password. Mountain Project is not intended as a service for children and therefore persons under the age of 13 may not become a member"

Define..?? "truthfully and accurately"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

3. Content Review, Removal, and Modification.

"By submitting Content to Mountain Project, you authorize future modifications of the Content by administrators, moderators, and other users. Content submitted to Mountain Project may be examined at any time and we maintain the absolute right (but not the obligation) to remove or change Content for any reason or no reason, at any time, with or without notice"

a few more adjectives, nouns & verbs could be added :)

Ken, using your name hasnt stopped you from trolling. You have accused me of stalking you, now I accuse you of the same.

My last name if you must know is LaRouche, my friends growing up(Florida) know me as la douche, or just douche.

Your quote about how the victim was way over his head and that you soloed that route in your sleep was poor taste indeed. I'll remove it(your quote) if you apologize, hows that sound?

Now back to work for me.

I'm just glad the rescue thread of gore & poor-taste is MIA

Dave Holliday wrote:...play with your dog, etc.

(I don't have a dog) Dave can I play with your dog..?

Dave Holliday wrote:Is this a user issue or an admin issue or maybe a bit of both? I know that the admins here are overworked and underpaid (just ask any of them; they'll tell you) but it seems like many of the forum discussions degrade into personal attacks rather quickly. Perhaps that could be nipped in the bud with some action by the moderators. The reason trolls are so successful is that people feel the need to get sucked in by them. The next time you (not just you, Ken, but everyone) feel the need to "feed the troll" step away from the keyboard and go climb, drink a beer, read a book, play with your dog, etc.

There are always going to be personal attacks, Dave. That is life. The problem is when people gratuitously attack and slander while hiding behind pen names. A person, Douche included, can say whatever he or she wants about me or anyone else in here, but put your name to it. That way, you are accountable for your words.

And, Douche, LaDouche, whatever your name is, there is nothing to apologize to you for. You are thread spam. You showed up here starting trouble with people that you don't know, and you completely overstepped the boundaries of decency when you started that shit in Preston's thread. You are a trouble maker and a troll, and your assertions are off the wall. You and I both know that you don't have the testicles to put your real name to the crap that you post.

I take responsibility for every word that I write. I am a climber, and many of these people know me on sight. When I say something foolish, and I do - we all do - my signature is attached to it, and I am accountable to everyone who knows me. You, on the other hand, are a cowardly, trouble-making troll. Calling me a stalker is just another one of your stupid assertions. I am simply calling you on your bullshit behavior, and the same goes for anyone who comes in here and attacks people whom they don't know, while hiding behind a fictitious username.

Douche,

For you to compare the title of your last post (which seems to have been removed) with what Ken wrote about WU being easy is an unfair comparison in my opinion. While I agree that Ken's line about what he used to do and how easy it was for him came off as self-focused, it was hardly in the same ballpark as your tasteless word choice in your gripe about your SAR experiences. Given the recent events in Eldo, your comments made me think "what an insensitive prick".

Not to mention, Ken has credibility here based on all of the informed comments and additions he has made over years. You're apparently new to the group and jumped in with a post that was so disrespectful it was removed by the admins.

About AC posts...

While I agree that it is better to post under your real name, I don't think I would favor a change in the site that REQUIRED people to post under their real name. Here are a few reasons I feel this way:

1. Some people don't want to use their real names on the Internet (for a variety of reasons) yet they still have worthy thoughts and info to contribute.

2. For the most part, AC posts are not that bad and many are quite helpful.

3. If things do go too far in a thread because of an AC, it usually doesn't take long for that person to be publicly chastised and for people to point out that they have little to no credibility when they post as an AC.

4. There are folks out there that post from work and don't want to leave a record of the fact that they are posting at work.

5. How would you know it's their real name anyway?

How about a policy where the admins simply remove AC posts or accounts at the first sign of inappropriate posing? If the AC in question has been a member for a while and made good posts in the past then the admin removes the post, if the AC account is new, then the whole account is deleted or locked.

Thoughts?..

Signed,
Brad Brandewie
(aka piquaclimber)

This thread is only 9 posts deep, and it seems half of it is valid discussion based on the OP's topic, but ironically the rest of this thread consists of the OP and douche trying to tell each other who and what is right and wrong. They have been both attacking eachother in the midst of many threads.

seems like this is always going to happen from very opinionated folks. I know because I too get attacked on here for voicing my opinion almost every time. And I have always done it with my real name, but the non stop regulars who spend there life on here might not know someone who is using there real name and still treat them like a worthless AC.

So does it matter if I use my real name and you don't know me, That still keeps me somewhat anonymous. It cracks me up how caught up and determined people get on here to find out who people are by making threats to find IP addresses and beat people down over internet chat. Somewhat irrelevant to the OP, but it is usually what I have seen on here when people get all bent about an attack or a post that people don't agree with. It's quite funny and entertaining to me, I just don't know why it matters or why people would care enough to get offended in an internet forum.

My suggestions and they are just that,

If you don't like the way the site is set up, Don't participate.

If you think you have all the answers and can make a better site, then start your own,

and finally I am totally one hundred percent behind David Holiday whoever you are. I could not agree more, just don't get involved, walk away, quit feeding the source if he is ruining your internet experience.

Finally I could not agree more that many posts did not belong in the Preston thread. Please keep the rants and the attacks in seperate non sensitive threads. Thanks for starting this thread here where it belongs.

Brad Brandewie wrote: How about a policy where the admins simply remove AC posts or accounts at the first sign of inappropriate posing? If the AC in question has been a member for a while and made good posts in the past then the admin removes the post, if the AC account is new, then the whole account is deleted or locked. Thoughts?.. Signed, Brad Brandewie (aka piquaclimber)

I second this policy. While I post under my real name here on MP, I post under emppeng27 on summitpost and other sites. I like the option of posting under a pseudonym if I choose and others do too. Deleting accts who have posted innappropriate stuff (commercial, nonsense, etc) is how it is done at SP. It works well there to get rid of trolls. People like douche should have the opportunity to post under a pseudonym but with the knowledge that should they get out of line on a consistent basis, they will be deleted. And the less time they have been registered, the quicker the hook. That way if someone decides to register one day and start trouble the next, he'll be deleted earlier than someone who has been on the site a long time.

my .02

JPVallone wrote:If you don't like the way the site is set up, Don't participate. If you think you have all the answers and can make a better site, then start your own,

It doesn't surprise me that comments like this would get attacked. You are making assumptions and are reading into my posts. I in no way think that I have all of the answers, and my comments are clearly not telling anyone what to do. Rather, I made a suggestion, based on experience with a very successful site in this regard, that might eliminate some of the needless and malicious trolling.

And to suggest that one should just not participate on a site, if they don't like everything about it, is like saying that people should just opt out of participating in life if things about it don't suit them. It is an unreasonable and unpractical premise.

I could say that you should not read or post in my thread if you don't like it, although the reality is that your opinion, which seems genuine and from the heart, is valuable to the discussion - regardless of whether I agree with you or not.

PRRose wrote: Anyone could use a real-sounding name and pass the anonymous filter.

I covered that. Re-read the OP.

And to cover Mike's suggestion about erasing posts, I have a fundamental problem with that practice as a regular course of action. Although I feel that it is appropriate in extreme circumstances, I'm not big on censorship. Accountability, on the other hand, helps to create a real world mindset for posters.

I don't agree with the anonymity argument, because it wouldn't work like that in a face to face discussion. If a stranger walked in to a group of people and behaved like Douche', there would be accountability for his words. The others would associate the name with the face, and his integrity and character would be called in to question. This is not the case when someone attacks another's character from behind a fictitious name.

Maybe just ignore the anonymous posts? People who troll are just doing it to screw with people, whether it's anonymous or not. Just don't take the bait.

Speaking of accountability, I don't agree with users (myself included) being allowed to delete or modify their posts without any evidence of it. There are many threads where someone made a post, then realized it sounded stupid, so they sneakily edited or deleted it. Evidence of post modifying is probably the only feature of 'that other climbing website' I like. For example:

69_nOOb_hater_69- [Post Deleted] or
wannabe_5.12_climber- n00bs sucks! [Post edited at 12:45pm on 6/20/07].

I agree with Dave Holliday and JP, if someones name is douche you should ignore them, just as you would in real life. I think there are plenty of attacks made on here by people with real names and people with fake names too. Just because you use your real name doesn't mean you aren't a close minded asshole (not necessarily referring to anyone specifically).

Braxton Norwood wrote: I don't agree with users (myself included) being allowed to delete or modify their posts without any evidence of it.

This is why I almost always quote when responding to a post.

David Appelhans wrote:I agree with Dave Holliday and JP, if someones name is douche you should ignore them, just as you would in real life. I think there are plenty of attacks made on here by people with real names and people with fake names too. Just because you use your real name doesn't mean you aren't a close minded asshole (not necessarily referring to anyone specifically).

Here's the difference, David. If I tell you that you are a this and that and that you did this or that, you can say: Hey, Cangi, what is your proof, and please corroborate your accusation? If I respond by telling you to go f--k yourself, not only you, but probably everyone whom I know and in the community is going to call me out for my behavior. That isn't the case with ACs who hide behind fake names, although their accusations sometimes still create questions for others. Pseudonyms are so common that people oftentimes just assume that that person and what they have to say is legitimate.

The only thing that I want to say regarding this thread is, "Thank You!" to whomever deleted the S&R thread. I found it extremely offensive. I wanted to write something on the thread itself, but decided it was best not to feed the troll.

I have not been involved myself, but I have several friends on SAR teams. At least one of them--but probably all of them--have been seriously affected by picking up fellow climber's body parts.

It's nothing to joke about and I personally find any "jokes" about deceased climbers terribly offensive. Thank you again to the admins (or whomever) that ridded this site of such offensive material. I wish that "douche's" account would be closed but that's not up to me. If he posts anything similar to that post again, I hope that step is at least considered. IMO, there's simply no room for that fucking garbage.

--Marc

Ken--

I know that it's not in your nature to ignore trolls, but I think your MP.com life would be better if you forced yourself to. Just some food for thought.

Marc Horan wrote:I think your MP.com life would be better if you forced yourself to. Just some food for thought.

I love my MP life. I was just at one of the administrator's parties the other evening, having great laughs with a few other site members about the entertaining nature of these discussions. For the most part, this site is very friendly. It is just my opinion that it would be that much better if people had to put their signature to their criticisms and accusations.

And there is a reason why I do not ignore trolls. Laying them bare kills their credibility. You give them enough rope and they eventually hang themselves. I am a staunch advocate free speech and accountability. Do and say whatever you want, but be ready to take responsibility for your words and actions.

Ken Cangi wrote:I love my MP life...And there is a reason why I do not ignore trolls. Laying them bare kills their credibility. You give them enough rope and they eventually hang themselves. I am a staunch advocate free speech and accountability. Do and say whatever you want, but be ready to take responsibility for your words and actions.

Fair enough. You obviously know the "consequences" of feeding the stupid little trolls. Feed on! But I don't think you should expect much sympathy from the community. I agree that people should sign their names to their posts. But I also think that it's simply not going to happen. Good luck on your battles with the trolls, though!

--Marc

Marc Horan wrote: Fair enough. You obviously know the "consequences" of feeding the stupid little trolls. Feed on! But I don't think you should expect much sympathy from the community. I agree that people should sign their names to their posts. But I also think that it's simply not going to happen. Good luck on your battles with the trolls, though! --Marc

Thanks marc, and I'm not looking for sympathy in a quest to defeat the trolls. They don't offer much of a challenge.

Eliminating anonymous posting is certainly controversial. I can't quite make up my mind, but I will agree that censorship is awful and should only be used as a last resort, and that if people used their real names there would be a lot less static on this site.

Furthermore, I really think that this site is deteriorating to some degree. There has always been spirited discussion; I remember the harsh back-and-forth regarding the Sport Park on climbingboulder. But the "completely useless" quotient has really ramped up here recently. I've always enjoyed this site, but the BS is really getting tedious...