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Vermont Bolted runnouts WTF?
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By john strand
From southern colo
Apr 2, 2012
HA ! The CA Needles have some lines....

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By JCM
From Seattle, WA
Apr 2, 2012
Matt N wrote:
phew - I'm glad this only applies to eastern states - this shit sounds scary!!!


Are you serious? CA is the land of scary old-school bolting. Visit Suicide, Tahquitz, Tuolomne, J-Tree, etc etc etc.

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By cjdrover
From Somerville, MA
Apr 2, 2012
Taken at MWV Icefest 2014.
John Husky wrote:
This is not the 70's. These routes were not hand drilled from a stance

People do still do that, you know.

John Husky wrote:
but I just don't enjoy being in ledge fall territory

John Husky wrote:
If they can climb 5.11 and the route is 5.7 the result can seem unsafe to me.

Then don't climb that one. Problem solved.

john strand wrote:
Why does every god damn climb have to fit into what is considered "safe".

+1

There are lots of options for climbing in the Northeast. Some are scary, some are not. Find routes you are comfortable with and accept that no one has a right to do every route. If you really think the community would be better served by retro-ing some of these routes then open that conversation with the FA's and the local community, but accept that the answer might be "no". Starting an internet rant titled "WTF" is probably not going to solve anything.

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By Eric D
From Gnarnia
Apr 2, 2012
Born again on the last move of the Red Dihedral, h...
John Husky wrote:
I just don't enjoy being in ledge fall territory on a sport climb.


I generally don't either. With some research and preperation this is easily avoided. There are plenty of well-bolted routes out there.

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By doligo
Apr 2, 2012
Jose Cuervo Fruitcups dirtbag style
John Husky wrote:
My problem with this is that the FA-ist is bringing the rock down to their level. If they can climb 5.11 and the route is 5.7 the result can seem unsafe to me. I don't have a scrap more respect for the FA-ist of a bold bolted route than I do for the FA-ist of a grid bolted sport climb. As stated, the word is artificial. Why not make them safe?



5.7 runouts are not only for 5.11 leaders. Some of my most memorable leads were the ones at my OS limit at the time - Empress on Chapel Pond (90ft belay to belay runout X pitch) and Sliding Board on Whitehorse (well, I actually went up Interloper by a mistake, but at the time I thought I was only a 5.7 leader). The mental challenge made that more exciting. It's like ice climbing, leader must not fall. That's all.

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By USBRIT
From Cumbria.UK
Apr 2, 2012
Looks like there are people here who should not be involved in rock climbing as a sport.... even sport climbers have accidents.. suggest they should perhaps consider taking up stamp collecting.Read more of the history of climbing ...risk was a very important part of the "sport" and still is for some..

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By Dom
Administrator
From New Brunswick Canada
Apr 2, 2012
Moby dick 5.11-
''When you take it upon yourself to open up a new route using bolts, it's no longer for yourself; it's also for the enjoyment of others. So you have a responsibility not only to put in safe bolts but to put them in logical places, to do the least possible alteration of the rock to establish the best possible experience for others.

The whole sport is contrived, if you think about it, the shoes, the chalk, the protection, the rope, all these products are artifically created. You can argue ground up versus rap bolting, but it's all artificial; it's all a game. And the objective of the game is enjoyment for everybody, and safety. Who wants to die from a bolt that pulled out because it was hastily placed while climbing from the ground up?
''

Lynn Hill

This segment is recopied in the Clifton crags guidebook that is also in the NorthEast.

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By steitz
From midcoast, maine
Apr 2, 2012
Graham Johnson wrote:
It still begs the question - why make something artificially dangerous? I haven't climbed any of the routes mentioned but I have been to many areas where bolts are placed few and far between with no options for other gear.


Where are you talking about? Are you still talking about New England?

Graham Johnson wrote:
I know of one area where the first ascenionists had a policy of what they called "exponential bolting" where the bolts got further and further apart the higher you went (no, the falls would not have been clean). Why? It was just a game the guys putting up routes played 'cause they were good enough to get away with it.




I think this thread and the replies are suffering from topic drift.

To get back on topic, and reiterate what has already been said at length - the routes are safe, just place some trad gear.

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By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Apr 2, 2012
Rumney
David Sahalie wrote:
where do you climb that adding bolts is an accepted practice?


I meant using trad gear is like adding our own bolts (ie - protection where none had previously existed). I clarified my post, didn't anticipate how that could be misinterpretted.

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By steitz
From midcoast, maine
Apr 2, 2012
Dom wrote:
''When you take it upon yourself to open up a new route using bolts, it's no longer for yourself; it's also for the enjoyment of others. So you have a responsibility not only to put in safe bolts but to put them in logical places, to do the least possible alteration of the rock to establish the best possible experience for others. The whole sport is contrived, if you think about it, the shoes, the chalk, the protection, the rope, all these products are artifically created. You can argue ground up versus rap bolting, but it's all artificial; it's all a game. And the objective of the game is enjoyment for everybody, and safety. Who wants to die from a bolt that pulled out because it was hastily placed while climbing from the ground up?'' Lynn Hill This segment is recopied in the Clifton crags guidebook that is also in the NorthEast.


I ♥ Clifton.

You'll run into the same mixed routes there though, I've seen quite a few people start up what they thought was a sport route, then have a massive run out past perfect cracks where there aren't bolts before they get back onto the bald faces, big crystals, and bolts again.

Clifton is a hidden jewel of the north.

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By MojoMonkey
Apr 2, 2012
Ummm... Thanks for the Lynn Hill quote? I'm not following the intent though. Is it meant to get people to say c'est la vie and stop bickering? Intended as support for bolting to avoid runouts?

To read the latter from the statement (my initial guess at intent), it seems to me you have to assume that "logical" has something to do with preventing a bad fall consequence versus perhaps where a good stance affords the opportunity, or that "best possible experience" equates to "safest possible experience"? And maybe not think too much on the "least possible alteration of the rock".

I guess I'm just not seeing how that quote, even if Lynn were somehow in charge of how all of climbing should be done, really factors into this discussion? Other than, if you are placing a bolt, place a good one?


Plus, I don't even agree with this:
Lynn Hill wrote:
And the objective of the game is enjoyment for everybody, and safety.


I've certainly seen folks who didn't make safety anywhere near priority #1. Bragging about crazy risks they took, even if unnecessary, being the key to enjoyment. And I see climbers who don't even seem to be out for enjoyment. Maybe they want to appease a significant other. Or maybe they are hoping to find a significant other.

It seems pretty silly to think that climbers have a unified "objective" for their game.

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By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Apr 2, 2012
Rumney
USBRIT wrote:
suggest they should perhaps consider taking up stamp collecting.Read more of the history of climbing ...risk was a very important part of the "sport" and still is for some..


We also used to oppress people who we viewed as different and bleed to cure illnesses. It's a fine line between progress and retaining archaic "traditions". Everything is subject to review, even the things we think we have figured out.

I think the current ethic is generally solid, when followed. Bolt only when necessary, try to keep bolt spacings reasonable (eliminate ground/ledge falls especially), etc. There's always going to be rogue FA'ers, people with a bolt gun who don't know what they're doing, and/or FA'ers who make mistakes when placing bolts. Generally these are exceptions to the rule. Most climbers who put up FAs in the northeast are connected to the other climbers and generally try to uphold the standards/ethics of their community (consensus).

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By cjdrover
From Somerville, MA
Apr 2, 2012
Taken at MWV Icefest 2014.
Dom wrote:
''When you take it upon yourself to open up a new route using bolts, it's no longer for yourself; it's also for the enjoyment of others. So you have a responsibility not only to put in safe bolts but to put them in logical places, to do the least possible alteration of the rock to establish the best possible experience for others. The whole sport is contrived, if you think about it, the shoes, the chalk, the protection, the rope, all these products are artifically created. You can argue ground up versus rap bolting, but it's all artificial; it's all a game. And the objective of the game is enjoyment for everybody, and safety. Who wants to die from a bolt that pulled out because it was hastily placed while climbing from the ground up?'' Lynn Hill This segment is recopied in the Clifton crags guidebook that is also in the NorthEast.


Ironic, since Lynn Hill's legacy at the Gunks includes several 5.12+ R rated lines, at least one of which was toproped and protected on rappell prior to being lead. (see the Williams guidebook for more info, Yellow Crack is 5.12+R/X and Girls Just Want to Have Fun 5.12 PG/R was pre-protected.)

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By Dom
Administrator
From New Brunswick Canada
Apr 2, 2012
Moby dick 5.11-
To clarify why I quoted Lynn Hill:

She says the best and preferred style is to leave a route unaltered. protect it with trad gear). So I don't find it Ironic that she put up those R/X 5.12's at the Gunks.

But, she says, if you're going to bolt a route to make it safer, well make it safe!

So my point was that it's ridiculous for someone to bolt something and leave intentional run-outs (i.e. R rated routes).

That being said, if there is good gear in between the bolts well then the route is still safe and there is no need for bolts in those sections.
If the guidebook says it's a sport route and then there is a run-out where gear could be used, then it should at least be mentioned in the guidebook something like ''optional medium gear can be used''.

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By John Husky
Apr 2, 2012
Quote :"why not make them safe ? " I say "WHY make them safe ? Why does every god damn climb have to fit into what is considered "safe". I'm not gonna place a bolt every 10 feet just some everyone can do a climb..not gonna happen. If you don't like it, go and find your own f/a's ..

Point well taken, and I would agree if the FA-ist didn't need some bolts, you know just so it's safe enough for him/her.

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By Dom
Administrator
From New Brunswick Canada
Apr 2, 2012
Moby dick 5.11-
steitz wrote:
I ♥ Clifton. You'll run into the same mixed routes there though, I've seen quite a few people start up what they thought was a sport route, then have a massive run out past perfect cracks where there aren't bolts before they get back onto the bald faces, big crystals, and bolts again. Clifton is a hidden jewel of the north.



If you think Clifton is a hidden jewel of the North, you should check out Welsford. 350 routes on beautiful pink granite located 3 hours East of Clifton. It also offers free camping just like Don Nelligan's Eagle Bluff at Clifton.


Cochrane Lane In Welsford NB
Cochrane Lane In Welsford NB

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By "H"
From Manitou Springs
Apr 2, 2012
Axes glistening in the sun
Style & Ethics of the Northeast. Try getting on Whitehorse Ledge. Sliding Board- Pitch 3 has 1 bolt on a 100 ft pitch. One of my first leads and it scared the crap out me back when I was like 23. (couldn't find the bolt) Climbing that slab still scares me when I'm back there & it's been almost 20 yrs!

I remember meeting Harvey Carter (RIP) after I rapped off of one his climbs (Twin Cracks in Ind. Pass) He was telling me about the lead. On the first pitch he hammered 1 piton in of which it was used to protect the crux traverse.And here I was placing pro.

My philosphy if it scares you that much don't climb it. If it's been an established route the original first ascent style should be maintained, not made easier so the masses can climb it. Aspire to climb harder/better beyond your limit.

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By JesseT
From Portland, OR
Apr 2, 2012
25' drop...wheeeeee!
David Sahalie wrote:
...By not making it safe for others to follow, you are holding the rock hostage with your own ego...i agree with Lynn Hill, once a bolt is placed, the deed has been done, make it doable...


It's never that clean cut. The problem with this issue every time it comes up is that it's someone saying "I don't like having the FA's vision of this route pushed on me." which is fine when it's not followed by "...but I want to push my vision of this route on everyone else." Any time anyone (yes, including Lynn Hill) tries to push their vision of what climbing should be on everyone else they are "holding the rock hostage with [their] own ego." Variety is the spice of life.


John Husky wrote:
...Why not make them safe?


If you want to make it safe you can always try toproping it.

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By CJC
Apr 2, 2012
the whole 'make it safe for everyone' demand is a very slippery slope

it's truly ridiculous to want/expect other people to put up routes to suit you

there should be some places left for those who wish to challenge their heads

if there's a scary runout section toprope it or go climb something less risky?

lynn hill might be a badass climber and former hottie but that bs she said in that quote is just her opinion as a sport climbing wanker

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By JesseT
From Portland, OR
Apr 2, 2012
25' drop...wheeeeee!
David Sahalie wrote:
...and my argument is that this mentality by the FA can hold classic pieces of rock hostage to those seeking a very singular experience.


But you're arguing taking that experience away from one group of people to give a different (and arguably more common type of) experience to a different group of people. That's what the problem is.

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By iBolt
Apr 2, 2012
D.Mills wrote:
no need to bring Derek Hersey into this argument is there?


i realize that Derek fell while soloing.... but, the fact remains, he fell on something "easy" for him.

if someone as able and capable as derek can (and did fall) on something "easy;" it may be a good reason for there to be bolts for the rest of us who are decidedly less able and less capable on the "5.7 stuff..."

ever hear someone say; "it's dead easy..."

"being dead" is "being dead" no matter what the grade.... if you die on a "wet 5.9" or a bone dry 5.11; you're still dead....

iBolt "who enjoys being alive...."

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By Stone Nude
Apr 2, 2012
When dumb people have disposable income, hilarity ...
Everybody on the floor! Wanna-be trad climbers are taking hostages, murdering the impossible, raping the pristine wilderness.

Hyperbole alert.

I like this:
Brian Scoggins:"The OP is objecting to *rap* bolted runouts. Where bolts "where you can get 'em" is wherever you damn well please.
I really respect routes put in ground up, drilling from stances. Its proud and bold. Rapping in to drill the bolts, then relentlessly toproping the runouts (or saying "its easy for me") is chicken shit though, and the wall is forever marred because of it. In other words, if the rap bolter hasn't considered the consequences of a blown clip, he needs to put the drill down and figure it out before damaging the rock."

Speaking as a first ascentionist, one of my favorite routes that I've ever established has five bolts in 140', four other gear placements, two of which are good. It's a big, wide open face following features as they unveil themselves. The variety, uncertainty, and quality of the stone made putting the route up and repeating the line unforgettable. It has yet to see a lead fall other than my groundfall trying something stupid on the FA, three feet off the ground. The biggest potential fall is 60' or so, down a teflon-clean sheet of black, featureless, glassy varnish. You'd have to blow a 5.8 move at the top after making your way through some probably sandbagged (but well-protected) .10+ THINness to take that fall. I doubt anyone will ever whip and take that ride, the route is safe within reason.

It all comes down to opinion, no objective standard for route development is possible because route development is a personal statement and we're (obviously) all very, very different people.

For shits and grins (and shock value), I like sport climbs with close bolts on occasion, too. I have a huge distaste for the entitlement issues that many sportos I meet display, but you can't fault members of the Loyal Order of the Chicken Feather for wishing that everything was as easy as their bolt ladder warmups, it's human to wish for comfort. It's like insisting that all paintings be of female nudes. Guaranteed, people would agree with you, but only as long as their sole preoccupation was with that particular subject matter. For the rest of the thinking world, a landscape, a still life, some abstract...

These are the flavors and textures that give life its variety and interest. Spend less time wishing for homogeniety and sameness and you'll find that broadening your horizons is the basis of all adventure. Fin.

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By JesseT
From Portland, OR
Apr 2, 2012
25' drop...wheeeeee!
Well put.

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By S Denny
From Aspen, CO
Apr 2, 2012
eveningsends.com/2012/04/ameri...

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By Stone Nude
Apr 2, 2012
When dumb people have disposable income, hilarity ...
Andrew can write. I respect him for finding the silver lining in terrible routes. I have trouble doing so.

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