A new climb, this route climbs like it's neighbors, with one exception: It has an arete to use. Solid rock, steep climbing, with good edges and a lot of sidepulls, well protected, except for the finish (which still isn't runout), and great exposure.
Location
Just left of Aquaduck, but right of Burning Bits and Submachine, on the SW face.
Was up here on the 31st (Sunday) and noted all of the hangers are missing from this route. The studs are still there, just no hangers. No hangers were missing from any of the other routes.
i don't understand why this climb was chopped if u chopped this route? why & who made u GOD. IF your going to chop a climb do it right and fill the holes .
I was on Mountain Project for the first time in a long time and found your route Poison Idea on it. I wish I would have seen it, because I would have talked to you earlier. Have you ever lead Aquaduck to the right of your route? I and several other climbers, see it as one of the top climbs in BCC for its spice. While I was in Iraq the last time, my buddy James told me that there were bolts on it. So after I got back we went to climb it to see if they interfered with the route. We both felt, as others did, that the bolts infringed on this classic line. The spice was gone. We felt that it was the same as bolting the left face of Stem the Tide at the Dihedral s because you can climb just the face. Merrill Bitter did the FA of Aquaduck Ground up in ’84. It is a Big Cottonwood Canyon Classic. The mental game to find the gear is what makes it so appealing to those who get on it. In speaking with Merrill he said, that when he first put it up he wanted to put a directional bolt on it, but, he said it didn’t need it since it could go many different ways. We knew that stripping your hangers would cause a stink but honestly we meant no disrespect to you or what you are doing (the more routes the better in my opinion). We would just like classic climbs to remain as they are. I have spoken to Merrill about what we did and he agreed, though he had NOTHING to do with it. I hope there is no animosity. We have never done anything like this before and I hope that I won't feel compelled to do so again. We are not trying to teach a lesson but if anything could come of this then let it be that, if you are going to put up a route, make sure it’s not taking away from another one. I have used your hangers since cleaning them, but would be happy to give you new ones. I would ask though, please don't put them back on Aquaduck. There is a lot of quality rock and many great routes yet to be put up in BCC and LCC. Please leave classic's alone. The one thing that I have learned from my tours as a Marine is that there are a lot of things that start wars and that both sides feel like they are just. Most often wars can be avoided by simply trying to understand the others point of view. My thoughts on life are simple, try to be as happy as possible and try to lift others along the way. I sincerely hope that this can stop here. There was no malice in our actions. I have seen death in climbing, in war, and in my family. Life is too precious to hold meaningless grudges. I share your fervor for climbing and putting up new routes. We have much in common. Let’s focus more on that. Let’s not make this a bolt war. I look forward to climbing more of your routes.
I do believe this could have/should have been handled differently. We are new at this. As for pulling the bolts, we'd rather it be a mutual tack vs just me and those that share my opinion. We really don't want to do anything till we have a chance to chat with Greg, until then I won't pull them. As it stands right now Poison Idea is still a route and a concern has been duly noted.
By Ryan Brough From: Arvada, Colorado Oct 18, 2008
ldsclimber wrote:
I was on Mountain Project for the first time in a long time and found your route Poison Idea on it. I wish I would have seen it, because I would have talked to you earlier.
It appears that Aaron didn't know who installed the bolts, and therefore didn't know who to contact regarding their removal. That being said, a trip to IME would have provided him with that information.
Maybe BCC is the next BoCan, where old trad lines are now crossed by bolt lines. IMHO, it does change the nature of a trad route when bolts are added within reaching distance.
We are a community of climbers. We should all respect the rock that we share, and respect those that climbed them first. If a bolter or a chopper violate the rock, the wishes of the FA, or the climbing community at large, there will be consequences.
I hope that a little common sense will help to avoid future situations like this.
Bolters: ask for input before drilling close to other routes. Choppers: alert climbers of "rogue" bolts and remove with chop with consensus.
We can regulate ourselves because we are all mature, right? If vigilante chopping and retro-bolting continue, ya'll are going to end up with a FHRC similar to that used in Eldo.
Hey Tyler I appreciate your thoughts as it does make me think how we could have done this better. I totally agree that a phone call should have happened, but attempts were made to find out who did it so we could talk. I guess we just went to the wrong places to find out. My friends asked those they knew who were bolting new routes at the Gyms and at local climbing shops along the Wasatch. The thought to check here was not had. We are not on this sight very often. I can see how the reuse of the bolts could be bad. If that offends anyone I am truly sorry. I mentioned that in the letter so he would know why he's getting knew ones. I have nothing to hide. The reason we did not pull the bolts is because we would like him to join with us and remove them. I really hope he will. I would also ask if you would like to help pull the bolts if he is willing to do it? Some of my friends feel that they should have been yanked, but I feel he put it up and the community has replied back. It was Greg that put the route up and it is he that has the choice to remove the bolts or not. By pulling just the hangers it makes a statement. In my opinion it is his responsibility to talk to Merrill to see if it should stay or go. We all know what we think. As you said it's on the table and hopefully the right thing will happen. Let's climb sometime and we can talk about it more or just climb:)
We will leave Greg's hangers under a rock near the Aquaduct. We feel we have done no wrong. Poison Idea still stands. If Greg feels like the route should stay, hang it. We would hope that if he hangs it, it will be after talking to Merrill. If he chooses not to *HE* should remove *HIS* bolts. What is done is done. The point has been made to all who want to put routes up in ANY area. Be careful where you put your routes up. Greg we want to give you your hangers and nuts back email me and let me know what rock and you can pick them up any time you want. Poison Idea and Aquaduck are in your hands once again. Hopefully in the future we can go climb. Aaron
I agree with your actions. Those bolts DID take the spice out of this Merrill Bitter classic. Its great to see there are still routes that aspiring climbers can "sack up" to lead and do NOT have the convienance of bailing to a bolt. What you did was just and you have my support.
Sincerely,
Troy D. Anderson Victor, Idaho
By Greg Martinez From: SLC UTAH Oct 20, 2008 rating: 5.10a
Where are the hangers. What rock? I saw Merill climb his climb twice & Me & My friends have climbed his route for 10 years before I bolted it. Poison Idea.We have never come close to wear the bolts were on his route.U fill the holes u chopped it.I want my hangers back.
Hey Greg I'm back down in St.George so I can't put the hangers under a rock for a while. Sorry. We'll call IME and 7 Metolius hangers will be waiting there for you to pick up tomorrow afternoon. Show ID so not just anyone can go grab them. I'll be back up in Nov so the studs will be cleaned then. Cheers Buddy Aaron
I'm glad to see this dilemma concerning aquaduck and poison idea coming to a close. About two years ago I was bragging to a friend about aquaduck. How inspiring and adventurous the climb was. We had about an hour before it would have been to dark to climb as we made our way around the scambling corner. I stopped below the face and looked up expecting a rush of excitement and awe, but only received confusion and disipoinment. Now where a smooth and daunting face had stood was a mere piece of rock with lines and arrows directing one to the final destination. I headed up aquaduck trying hard to ignore the bolt line to my left. I reached the point of no return, pumped as ever before wanting desperately to end my fears and just reach over and clip, clip, clip my way to the top. Pushing this out of my mind I finished it the original way. Leaving for home saddened not for my self but for others that would never experience what I had in times past.
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