Hot Toddy 

The more demanding route just to the right, Tequilla Sunrise share these anchors and can be top roped easly. After the tricky fingers start it's perfect hands all the way up! Do it!! ...........................................................

gee, thanks for keeping us all in check there Ben.

I'd have to grade this one A+, C'est La Vie...huh?

Why are people so hung up on grades? It's SO subjective. Who put up the first ascent? Were they tall? Short? Stocky? Thin? Did they have a big ego? Were they modest? All these things can affect what grade a climber slaps on her or his new route.

Also, the human body simply can have low energy or high energy days. Maybe this is based off what you ate/ drank (or didn't eat), or based off what you climbed in the last week.

Why bicker over this kind of thing. Why even take offense? It's just someone's opinion.

And THANKS BEN, you're advice is valuable to know for someone who is not a strong long time desert leader and what you've said is the kind of thing that may turn me on to a route I thought I couldn't lead. Of course, I won't take any one single piece of advice as "the bottom line", but we all know you should draw your own conclusions and use your own judgement anyway.

I left the original rating of 5.10b in the description out of respect for who ever climbed it first and gave it the rating. I've got to agree with Ben that this route is easier than many other 5.10b's. The comment section of this site is the more appropriate place to carry on this conversation instead of down grading the route, in my opinion. I'll tell you one thing though, it's much much easier than Incredible Hand Crack which is a 5.10c!!!!

In his book, American Rock, the author Don Mellor brings up an important issue. Too many times these days a route might be described as "a 5.10" rather than "an excellent crack". Are you climbing to have fun, or to climb 5.HARD ? Today my girlfriend and I climbed two 5.8 routes... and that was fun ... even if I lead harder than that.

The climb is pretty good, but not really 'interesting' enough for me to give it 4 stars. I liked Gunsmoke and Tequilla Sunrise more.

The grade is probably hand size dependent. I have pretty small hands and I found some awkward moves there- which were sustained to give a good pump. I thought the climb had no really hard moves, but here's the question, "Would a 5.9 climber on-sight it?" I doubt it sincerely. So it's a 5.10. I'd just warmed up on the "11b" a few routes to the right and found this 10b to be more difficult. I also found it more difficult overall than Tequilla Sunrise (10d) but admittedly, I can get my mitts in T.S. and they rattle in H.T.

So I guess the discussion of grades in Indian Creek and the surrounding area comes from a few places. The first of which is that all of them are so hand-size dependent that they are hard to make sense of, so people jaw about them a lot. The next reason is that people are trying to figure what routes they can and can't likely do, or what their accomplishment level really is. It's an interesting conversation for some people, so why not let them have it? It isn't hurting you.

Oh and another thing. All of the beta on this site is starting to really take the adventure out of climbing. In response to Ben's above comments, recommending a route to somebody based on grades and ability is a bunch of bullshit. Learning to be a good climber means you can look at the pitch and decide for yorself. Can I protect it if it looks hard etc. etc. etc! Learning to think for oneself and not need the bullshit beta often offerred on this website is crucial in becoming a safe and competent climber. End of story.

Interesting comments and partially true. Fully lame coming from an AC though.

AC wrote "Oh and another thing. All of the beta on this site is starting to really take the adventure out of climbing."

This is ridicules. If one wants adventure then don't use any guidebook, online or otherwise. Just go out and walk up to the rock and start climbing. If one comes to this site and reads a route description and all the comments about that route and then complains that they got too much information then I have no sympathy. What did they expect?

This site or the existence of guidebooks doesn't take any adventure away unless you choose to allow it to do so.

After a couple days with the spring break crowds on Wall Street, we escaped to Maverick Buttress for our last day.

I got on this yesterday, and backed off with my tail between my legs. In my excitement to get on it, I didn't eyeball it thoroughly from the ground. I expected to be able to place several #2 camalots. Once I got on it, and pulled the start, I discovered it was gonna be 65 feet of #3 camalots...and I only had 3. I don't have the best eye for guessing size, and perhaps there are a couple places where you could place a #2, or a flare to take a #4, but I didn't see it that way, and had to down aid.

Those with a heavier sack or bigger guns than I may be happy to lead this on less gear, but I'd want at least 6 or 7 #3 camalots. The start protects with a #4 or 4.5 camalot, and the short offwidth at the finish will take a #5 (or a deeply placed #3, according to another climber who did Tequila Sunrise).

Definite MUT DO if you like #3 camalot size!

Shares anchor with Tequila Sunrise, sweet 10+ splitter with tight hands start .... I would have loved to give this a try but was spooked after down aiding the first 20 feet of Hot Toddy. I'll be back in the fall!

FA= Charlie Fowler and Jack Roberts, January, 1987.