Hot Toddy 

The more demanding route just to the right, Tequilla Sunrise share these anchors and can be top roped easly. After the tricky fingers start it's perfect hands all the way up! Do it!! ...........................................................

Get on it if you are doing 9s, but not 10s. I did this route on Sat. and could not find a "10b" move on it anywhere. Sorry for sounding like the typical sprayer. The route is nice and is well worth doing.

gee, thanks for keeping us all in check there Ben.

AC,if you disagree, then say so and sign your name. I won't TP your house. Giving any climb, especially a crack, a letter grade is pure BS. I've done quite a few cracks of varying grades and this one did not seem as hard as others having a similar "grade". Even if this route were as difficult as purported, its crux is low and the rest of the route is a relative cruise to the anchors. Being a crack, it has ample protection (duh). Recommending this route to a 9 leader is not analogous to telling them to do P1 of C'est la Vie in Eldo.

I'd have to grade this one A+, C'est La Vie...huh?

Why are people so hung up on grades? It's SO subjective. Who put up the first ascent? Were they tall? Short? Stocky? Thin? Did they have a big ego? Were they modest? All these things can affect what grade a climber slaps on her or his new route.

Also, the human body simply can have low energy or high energy days. Maybe this is based off what you ate/ drank (or didn't eat), or based off what you climbed in the last week.

Why bicker over this kind of thing. Why even take offense? It's just someone's opinion.

And THANKS BEN, you're advice is valuable to know for someone who is not a strong long time desert leader and what you've said is the kind of thing that may turn me on to a route I thought I couldn't lead. Of course, I won't take any one single piece of advice as "the bottom line", but we all know you should draw your own conclusions and use your own judgement anyway.

I left the original rating of 5.10b in the description out of respect for who ever climbed it first and gave it the rating. I've got to agree with Ben that this route is easier than many other 5.10b's. The comment section of this site is the more appropriate place to carry on this conversation instead of down grading the route, in my opinion. I'll tell you one thing though, it's much much easier than Incredible Hand Crack which is a 5.10c!!!!

In his book, American Rock, the author Don Mellor brings up an important issue. Too many times these days a route might be described as "a 5.10" rather than "an excellent crack". Are you climbing to have fun, or to climb 5.HARD ? Today my girlfriend and I climbed two 5.8 routes... and that was fun ... even if I lead harder than that.

The climb is pretty good, but not really 'interesting' enough for me to give it 4 stars. I liked Gunsmoke and Tequilla Sunrise more.

The grade is probably hand size dependent. I have pretty small hands and I found some akward moves there- which were sustained to give a good pump. I thought the climb had no really hard moves, but here's the question, "Would a 5.9 climber on-sight it?" I doubt it sincerely. So it's a 5.10. I'd just warmed up on the "11b" a few routes to the right and found this 10b tro be more difficult. I also found it more difficult overall than Tequilla Sunrise (10d) but admittedly, I can get my mitts in T.S. and they rattle in H.T.

So I guess the discussion of grades in Indian Creek and the surrounding area comes from a few places. The first of which is that all of thema re so hand-size dependent that they are hard to make sense of, so people jaw about them a lot. THen next is that people are trying to figure what routes they can and can't likely do, or what their accomplishment level really is. It's an interesting conversation for some people, so why not let them have it?

Oh and another thing. All of the beta on this site is starting to really take the adventure out of climbing. In response to Ben's above comments, recommending a route to somebody based on grades and ability is a bunch of bullshit. Learning to be a good climber means you can look at the pitch and decide for yorself. Can I protect it if it looks hard etc. etc. etc! Learning to think for oneself and not need the bullshit beta often offerred on this website is crucial in becoming a safe and competent climber. End of story.