By CaptainMo
Administrator
Aug 7, 2012
| Mick S wrote: Is that what I said? Thanks for clarifying. Don't assume you know what I meant from my post, because you don't. My point was that logic does not matter to the individuals who chop bolts at the Forks, or any other mainly traditional climbing area. In their view it's been a certain way in the past, and will continue to be that way in the future, they don't care about your opinion.
whoa killah! I wasn't trying to say at all that's what you said or whatever I was just presenting my opinion of what this whole thing sounded like... very similar to CT. Pins okay but bolts are bad... it's a fucked up conception to begin with that's all. no foul bud! | 
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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Aug 7, 2012
| Mick S wrote: Is that what I said? Thanks for clarifying. Don't assume you know what I meant from my post, because you don't. My point was that logic does not matter to the individuals who chop bolts at the Forks, or any other mainly traditional climbing area. In their view it's been a certain way in the past, and will continue to be that way in the future, they don't care about your opinion.
You sound very misunderestimated. |
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By CaptainMo
Administrator
Aug 7, 2012
| Colonel Mustard wrote: You sound very misunderestimated.
Isn't that a word that Bush made up one day when he forgot the English language? Lol!
|
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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Aug 7, 2012
| Morgan Patterson wrote: Isn't that a word that Bush made up one day when he forgot the English language? Lol!
Durp! It seemed appropriate. |
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By CJD
Aug 9, 2012
| Pins and bolts are not the same. Pins fit in natural cracks without drilling. FIXED pins are less damaging than bolts since they can be easily replaced or removed usually without much evidence that they were ever there. Pins are often much better pro than bolts when placed well. The problem with bolts is that you can't easily tell if they are good. I know of more falls as the result of bad bolts than pins. Usually a bad pin is obvious and can be fixed with a few taps. Unfortunately few free climbers even own a hammer. I remember Gary Neptune complaining about that in the 80's. ; )
No bolts at the Forks is good policy with land managers too. If you aren't man enough to do the route without bolts don't do it. If you want to drill there are plenty of other areas where it is accepted. Fixed pins should be used sparingly too. You could hammer a line of knifeblades up a seam and it would be as ugly as a line of bolts. |
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By Kevin Connolly
From CO
Aug 9, 2012
| David Sahalie wrote: pins are never better because they take the place that a cam could go. i understand their application for aid climbing in extremely small cracks, but they have no place in free climbing. many lines go free now because they have been aided on pins. if you think you are having a negative impact by placing a bolt, think about the fact that you are chipping for free climbers by placing a pin.
i really hate when someone fixes a bong in a perfectly good #3 camalot placement. anyway, when i'm getting psyched up for a huge whipper i much prefer a grey c3 to some shitty LA driven in all the way to the eye. who leaves this garbage on routes? obviously they need to take a NOLS class or something. |
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By Alex McIntyre
From Tucson, AZ
Aug 9, 2012
| CJD wrote: Pins and bolts are not the same. Pins fit in natural cracks without drilling. FIXED pins are less damaging than bolts since they can be easily replaced or removed usually without much evidence that they were ever there. Pins are often much better pro than bolts when placed well. The problem with bolts is that you can't easily tell if they are good. I know of more falls as the result of bad bolts than pins. Usually a bad pin is obvious and can be fixed with a few taps. Unfortunately few free climbers even own a hammer. I remember Gary Neptune complaining about that in the 80's. ; ) No bolts at the Forks is good policy with land managers too. If you aren't man enough to do the route without bolts don't do it. If you want to drill there are plenty of other areas where it is accepted. Fixed pins should be used sparingly too. You could hammer a line of knifeblades up a seam and it would be as ugly as a line of bolts.
Implying fixed pins are better pro than a well-placed bolt is ludicrous. Also, since when have fixed pins been easy to inspect? |
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By Mike McKinnon
From Golden, CO
Aug 9, 2012
| Man I am so glad I don't climb in AZ. This thread is killing me. |
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By JMo
From Flagstaff, AZ
Aug 9, 2012
| I'm really glad that you, and every other person who trots this tired line out on mp from time to time, dont climb here either. I do like road tripping to Colorado and many other places tho. |
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By JMo
From Flagstaff, AZ
Aug 9, 2012
| The pin that EFR's question brings to mind is not at the forks but the overlook- the one on isaiah. Many of us have clipped it. Good question tho as to why it is there. I'm not complaining, I'm happy to clip it. I'm just curious b/c none of us would argue that line is remotely unprotectable. |
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By Daryl Allan
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Aug 9, 2012
| CJD wrote: Pins and bolts are not the same.
CJD wrote: Pins fit in natural cracks without drilling.
CJD wrote: FIXED pins are less damaging than bolts since they can be easily replaced or removed usually without much evidence that they were ever there.
I call bs here. I have patched bolt holes that took me several minutes to find after I went back and checked on the 'patch' I used. I haul base dirt up and press it into 'quick steel' after I mash it into the bolt hole. I've never had one stand out. Here's a couple I found in a quick search here on mp that look like they were patched using a similar method:
| Patched bolt hole on Red Shoes next to natural gear. One of many examples.
Submitted By: DesertDan on Jun 27, 2012
|
| New bolt and patched hole: I failed to completely scrub off the X I marked the old bolt with.
Submitted By: Jay Samuelson on Feb 22, 2012
|
However, I have no clue how you would patch something like this:
| Bad pin scars and a bail bolt on this unknown. It is a travesty that somebody practiced their nailing on this smooth seam which leads to nowhere. It would be good for somebody to carry a tall ladder up there and remove the bolt and patch the hole.
Submitted By: Ben Folsom on Nov 19, 2007
|
CDJ: "Pins are often much better pro than bolts when placed well."
What kind of bolts have you been climbing on??
CDJ: " The problem with bolts is that you can't easily tell if they are good. I know of more falls as the result of bad bolts than pins. Usually a bad pin is obvious and can be fixed with a few taps. Unfortunately few free climbers even own a hammer. I remember Gary Neptune complaining about that in the 80's. ; )"
I remember having to tap pins back in all over Garden of the Gods in the early 90's. That was just part of the game. I just seems that 20 years later, we have other options.. shouldn't we be taking advantage of them?
CDJ: "No bolts at the Forks is good policy with land managers too. If you aren't man enough to do the route without bolts don't do it. If you want to drill there are plenty of other areas where it is accepted. Fixed pins should be used sparingly too. You could hammer a line of knifeblades up a seam and it would be as ugly as a line of bolts. "
If this is an agreement with land managers then that's an entirely different situation from that of local ethics or tradition. If this is an established guideline of the area, I would suggest devising an effective method of disseminating this information as wide as possible.
Peeps are road tripping more than ever before. Directions, ratings, beta galore, etc are at our fingertips. Mp and a few other resources online has greyed the effectiveness of the 'locals' definition more than ever before. Signs posted strategically on trails leading into the area could be used to educate folks on what is allowed there. IMO, something along these lines would be vastly more effective than telling folks not to climb something if they're not "man enough to do it" without bolts. That tone of banter just fuels rebellious tendencies and even creates as much where none may have even been before.
ADMINS:
FYI, it seems that the <quote.. markers do not work after you post an image in your post. Is this a known bug? |
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By Mike McKinnon
From Golden, CO
Aug 9, 2012
| CJD wrote: Pins and bolts are not the same. Pins fit in natural cracks without drilling. FIXED pins are less damaging than bolts since they can be easily replaced or removed usually without much evidence that they were ever there. Pins are often much better pro than bolts when placed well. The problem with bolts is that you can't easily tell if they are good. I know of more falls as the result of bad bolts than pins. Usually a bad pin is obvious and can be fixed with a few taps. Unfortunately few free climbers even own a hammer. I remember Gary Neptune complaining about that in the 80's. ; ) No bolts at the Forks is good policy with land managers too. If you aren't man enough to do the route without bolts don't do it. If you want to drill there are plenty of other areas where it is accepted. Fixed pins should be used sparingly too. You could hammer a line of knifeblades up a seam and it would be as ugly as a line of bolts.
You are being intellectualy dishonest to prove a point. |
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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Aug 9, 2012
| Hey Daryl,
I totally agree that bolt holes can be covered over well. An even better alternative, I think, is to be able to re-use the existing hole. Here there might be some advantage of a pin (or sleeve bolt) vs a wedge bolt. |
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By Daryl Allan
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Aug 9, 2012
| Very true Geir.. good point. |
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By Mark Lewis
From Salt Lake City, Utah
Aug 9, 2012
| +1 to Daryl's response, sound, logical... |
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By Trad Nanny
Aug 9, 2012
| If you are on a ground up FA of a lead I'd say pounding a pin is perfectly reasonable but should be avoided on sound reasoning discussed in previous posts, longevity, rock damage, etc.
Personally I try and skip any protection I didn't personally place besides while sport climbing of course and some bolted anchors. While climbing i would rather not rely on others effort but begrudegenly have to from time to time. I'm out there to challenge myself and in this day and age we have the technology to hopefully out do our past with a cleaner style while at the same time respecting our past by facing the same challenges, albeit with some enhanced gear on our side.
The point being that pins are extremely similar to bolts and if bolts aren't allowed neither should pins with notable exception of leading an FA ground up. That exception also applying to drilling from a stance.
BTW Ball Nuts might fit where fixed pins once were. |
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By Mike J.
From Red rock camp ground
Aug 9, 2012
| Having pins on a route makes sense to me... why you ask? Because that was the way the route was established. when the FAist was leading that line he clearly felt that section of climbing needed more pro then clean protection allowed for, so he sat there awkwardly banging a pin home. After the elapsed time the FAist had the pleasure or displeasure of climbing above the pin he worked so hard for. sharing in this experience is the reason some of us climb!
and as far as 20 years down the line goes,
| fixed pro eval flow chart
Submitted By: Mike J. on Aug 9, 2012
|
As far as pin scars go they come from placing and removing a pin many times, the point of leaving a pin in place is to prevent this damage. |
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By Bryan G
From Yosemite
Aug 9, 2012
| I definitely like to see pins used over bolts where possible, with clean gear being the first choice obviously. Pins are easy to replace, and they don't quite so "murder the impossible" since you do need a natural seam or something to hammer them in, unlike bolts which can just be drilled wherever. And as a couple people have pointed out, their damage to the rock is minimal if they are used sparingly as fixed protection and not constantly hammered in and out as on popular "nailing" routes.
Of course it all depends on where you're climbing since every place is different, and that's the way it should be, since variety is the spice of life. |
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By Daryl Allan
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Aug 11, 2012
| And this is what keeps me coming back. Logic that makes me challenge my own viewpoints and consider other lines of reasoning.
Hilarious flowchart Mike. Did you just put that together? |
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By Mike J.
From Red rock camp ground
Aug 11, 2012
| I'm glad some one appreciated it. Its cool to see this thread going some where, these things usually just degrade into mud slinging.
|
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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Aug 11, 2012
| Yeah I like threads like this one. It's a keeper. |
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By 1Eric Rhicard
Aug 12, 2012
| So far your fixed pin arguments are still lame. Unless you put the pin in you have no idea how good it is. I have lead a number of routes then returned and pulled the pins I climbed past. Good thing I didn't fall. I then replaced them with bolts. Some of those pins were good when they went in and others were crap but they were better the day they were driven than any time after that. The guy who put them in made a choice to climb past it based on how it went in. When I showed up and clipped them I spun the cylinder and pulled the trigger. I was counting my ability to stay on the rock and never test that pin.
Clipping a fixed pin has nothing to do with sharing an experience with the FAist. You didn't haul a hammer and "awkwardly" pound it it. All you did was clip fixed gear and hope it was as solid as the day it went in. It is a crap shoot. Fixed gear is fixed gear be it bolt or pin. So lets leave something that has a higher chance of being bomber in the future.
FLOW CHART: Oh, and as I said, I tweaked an ankle when a fixed pin pulled so I am a hard man. WOOHOO. That didn't make me feel any better as I hobbled around Tuolumne for a week.
Fixed gear should last as long as possible and I don't think I should have to carry a hammer on a route to be sure the pin is solid. And the BS argument that bolts can't be trusted is silly. Stainless bolts or glue ins are not affected by rust and freeze thaw cycles the way pins are.
Next time I post to this thread I will tell you how I really feel! Haha |
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By Mark Mueller
From Flagstaff, AZ
Aug 13, 2012
| ha, fuck that piton on Isaiah |
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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Aug 13, 2012
| Eric "nailed" the argument. For me, anyway. +1 |
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By Charles Vernon
From Florence, AZ
Aug 13, 2012
| I don't mind (or even kind of like having) pins in situations where either (1) there are several of them, or (2) if they pull there is good gear close enough below that the fall will be bigger but still probably safe. On a traditional route I feel this keeps me honest. These kinds of routes are all over Eldo, eg:
- NW Corner Bastille: 3 pins in a row at the crux. Chances that all 3 pull seem remote.
- Yellow Spur: about 6 pins in a row through the long crux section and a couple of good pieces can be placed as well.
- Wide Country P1: a pin protects the crux, if it blows there is a bolt about 5 feet below.
- West Buttress Bastille: a knifeblade protects the crux but there is another pin about 5 feet below that can be backed up.
Lots of other examples. I do hate routes where there is a single pin that can't be backed up, protecting a difficult move where the fall would be safe if the pin held but damaging if it failed. That's the kind of situation that's impossible to realistically evaluate the danger, and to me calls for pulling the pin if clean gear is available, and if not, then placing a bolt.
Also, pins on long, remote backcountry routes--even placed by modern first ascentionists--don't bother me as they can be far more practical to place for the leader than a bolt. |
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