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Use Trails Please

Original Post
Andy Hansen · · Longmont, CO · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 3,130

After last month's efforts by the local climbing community to rebuild the trails in the pullouts, the trails have already seen significant signs of deterioration. Those skinny, brown trail markers that clearly have the word TRAIL crossed out of them mean something.

This time of year will see a lot of visiting climbers in the Red Rock so please help out and stay on the designated trails. And also, read the signs carefully. The signs that have a TRAIL crossed out mean that the current "trail" you think you're on is actually not even a trail to be used. One instance of this is in the 2nd Pullout. A lot of folks are forced to park their car on the road north of the pullout and then use the "trail" that leads down to the wash across the hillside. This is, in fact, not a trail. Walk to the actual pullout and follow the designated path, please.

And if a friendly climber brother or sister recommends that you use the actual trail please be courteous and heed their request. Don't just blow them off because you think they're being a dickhead.

Thanks everybody.

jbird · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 0

I wish more people would spread this kind of message. We all need to be aware of the environment we are entering, especially in the desert.

+11

NickinCO · · colorado · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 155

It's a shame the BLM won't take their heads out of their asses and create actual marked trails into the canyons to the popular climbs.. Because of this I think there will always be 100 different climber trails. I believe there was a thread on this a year or so ago and the BLM wanted to do a "study" that would take at least 6 months to complete on the impact of creating such a trail? Gotta love the gov't.

smassey · · CO · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 200

Despite what seems like a common sense "let's just make some marked trails", the politics behind that are mind-boggling. Due to some short-sightedness in the past, the trails were not "designated" as far as they should've been, and lots of user-created trails have formed in the past 10 years as climbing use has increased exponentially. Trust me, those in the BLM that actually care are working on it, in addition to the million other things on their plate. It may take a while, like everything, but it has been noted.

Sherri Lewis · · Sequim, WA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 316

The trail(s) cutting down the steep red hillside on the way out of Juniper Canyon is a good candidate for some sort of intervention and stabilization measures. That area seems to be getting more popular with summit-taggers and the fragile hillside is taking a beating as folks continually break new ground looking for firmer footing.

Ty Morrison-Heath · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 2,053

Don't forget after NEPA (National Environmental Protection Act) your EIS (Environmental Impact Study) statement if there are any endangered species in the area in compliance with Section 7 of the ESA (Endangered Species Act). Then you bring in MUSY (Multiple-Use Sustained-Yield) act for discussions of BLM and Forest Service land. Before you know it a trail that would take a crew an afternoon to build requires 6 months of fulltime work to get clearance for. Ahhhh American law...gotta love it.

All of this being said....If there are trails for peats sake use them please!

smassey · · CO · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 200
Mike McHugh wrote: If you wanna see a rocky mountain public lands employee flinch, say "prebles jumping mouse".
Ain't that the truth. Thanks for the support, Mike. For folks that haven't worked with land management, this issue is way more complicated than it seems (or needs to be...). For f---'s sake, stay on the trail. Clean up after yourself. Have a good day.
smassey · · CO · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 200
Sherri Lewis wrote:The trail(s) cutting down the steep red hillside on the way out of Juniper Canyon is a good candidate for some sort of intervention and stabilization measures. That area seems to be getting more popular with summit-taggers and the fragile hillside is taking a beating as folks continually break new ground looking for firmer footing.
Working on that one too. Gonna be a while, so don't anyone hold your breath...
John Hegyes · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Feb 2002 · Points: 5,676

Just how many trails has BLM built in Red Rock over the past say, 10 years??

I can't think of any except the remodel of the Red Spring picnic area. They built an ADA-accessible boardwalk around the grassy area there.

BLM is responsible for the management of this land, but just how many people do they employ for trail maintenance??

I'm guessing zero.

Where does all the visitor fee money go? At $7 per car, BLM rakes in millions. All they seem to spend it on is the brand new offices for their employees and on LEOs that only lurk around the loop road looking for late-exit violators rather than for taggers with their spray paint cans.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of trails are merely threaded social trails and the land is becoming ruined one footstep at a time. Red Rock is a sensitive ecological habitat that is being trampled to death. I haven't even seen a single trail sign in the backcountry that was paid for and installed by BLM.

When I think of the land management from where I came, ie., Boulder Mountain Parks and Eldorado Canyon State Parks in Colorado, it just drives me up the wall to see the trail system in Red Rock. It's a disaster.

BLM is the worst bureaucracy for the administration of urban recreational lands like Red Rock. This area would be much better served by a proactive county or state park department. Unfortunately those entities here are a whirlpool of debt, so that would not be feasible at this time. I'd even recommend that NPS take over jurisdiction with a national monument or NRA designation, perhaps.

It's illuminating to read the complaints above about the endless paperwork that it takes to build a single trail. The time has come to declare BLM an incompetent manager of this urban recreational area. They are in the business of exploiting the land, not protecting it. BLM irresponsibly sold thousands of acres of Las Vegas Valley land to developers, contributing in a major way to the housing crisis here. BLM grants carte blanche to foreign companies to extract minerals from Nevada, while the state government turns a blind eye to the potential for tax dollars while Nevada spirals deeper into debt. BLM has ruined our native vegetation by permitting overgrazing by cattle. BLM imprisons endangered desert tortoises and kills wild horses - the jewels of Nevada - at the request of developers and ranchers.

It's no wonder why BLM is too busy to file the paperwork to get trails built. Get the BLM out of recreational park operation; get some trails built in Red Rock. Save the desert before it is too late.

Michelle Locatelli · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2007 · Points: 265

A couple weeks ago coming up the trail to the Second Pullout parking lot, I saw within seconds of each other, a woman("climber?") on trail using one of the brown marker signs as a support to push herself off trail-around the next bend an older guy(climber) using a sign to pull himself back on trail from off trail- and a little boy running right past a brown marker and off trail as his parents cheered him on for struggling on up the rugged hill. The signs seem to come in handy I guess if you've forgotten your Leki pole.
I was running the trails a few days ago and the area below the First Pullout is totally destroyed, about impossible to find the actual true trail, and in effect making the situation increasingly worse. If a group volunteers to repair these areas and supplies the material and manpower for free would the BLM allow this?

Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954

Michelle, it's a great question. Last summer I hiked the John Muir Trail and ran into two NPS trail crews. I bet if just one of those trail crews were employed for a full year in Red Rocks, they could "fix" 99% of the trail problems.

I'm glad there are signs at the first and second pull outs, but as long as those "short cuts" are still there and still look appealing, people are still going to ignore them. These short cuts need to be corded off at the very least, and filled in/repaired at the best. At the same time, the actual trails need clear borders (marked with stones?) until native vegetation can return to define their boundaries.

I for one would be happy to take part in trail work days - but only if it's done right. Those signs would be much more beneficial on the less-traveled (braided) trails in the canyons where they could do some good. The pull outs are going to need more than that.

Andre Dupas · · Canadian Rockies · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 10
This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.
smassey · · CO · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 200

Andre- if you were familiar with the area that is being discussed you would probably agree(not to say you're not...). It's kinda like dumping Disneyland in a fragile desert environment. Agree with you wholeheartedly if it was pertaining to the backcountry, but even there trails concentrate the use in more popular areas.
Yep, since those are Designated Trails at the Pullouts, the BLM would be more than happy to let volunteer groups work on them. They will even supply tools and most materials. Since I'm gone now, I won't be taking the lead on this. Contact the CLC or John wilder directly, as well as Nick Walendziak at the BLM if you have questions. It's really just a matter of someone volunteering to put the whole thing together. There has been a lot of discussion lately between the CLC, the AAC, and Friends of RR about making some trail projects happen. Re: signs in the canyons, that's also a Wilderness issue, for better or worse, and is waiting on the Climbing Management Plan to address that... Hope that helps.

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425
Andre Dupas wrote:What happened to the term "off the beaten path"? Andy I do understand what you are saying however if I have to stay on the "TRAIL" then I might as well just go to the mall or amusement park. Are the routes you climb on a designated trail? All the bouldering in Vegas has trails leading to each problem? Should I Fuck my wife on the trail too? Go out explore and enjoy. We are slowly loosing our sense of adventure. If people didn't deviate from trails then how would we know where to build the next trail?
Although I hear what you're saying with the whole "freedom to explore" mentality, that won't really work in sensitive areas regarless whether it's the desert or the alpine. 100 years ago sure, but muliply the damage done by the number of visitors in a modern society especially when most aren't ecoconcious. You'd have errosion, smashed alpine plants etc. We want to preserve what we have left for as much time as this rock continues to turn.

No one is perfect, but the message is to tread lightly, LNT and TRY to use previously made trails to MINIMIZE the damage of our visits on the environment. Like it or not, this is 2012, not 1912.
Andre Dupas · · Canadian Rockies · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 10
This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.
BScallout · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 0

Andre sounds french. Dude your compooter needs a breathalyzer. You are clearly talking out the side of your ass so big here it's an embarrassment for you and your fellow countryman. So I implore you to stay up in Canada, we don't need dicks like you around here, there are enough already. Keep drinkin', eh.

Jeff Chrisler · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 145

Andre, you are being rude and thus violating rule number 1. If you're French, perhaps you don't understand that you are being a jerk, but you are. I am sure that the statement about f-ing your wife could have been omitted and you'd still have gotten your point across.

Of course, we all have a time and place to veer off trail, but come on, you should at least follow the trails when they are well signed and formed. Of course, when it's rugged and you've got a climb to get to, and you can't go on trail, you've gotta go off trail. Most of the things I think Andy is talking about here are where there is a valid trail to be had and people are screwing around and going off trail for no good reason.

Andre Dupas · · Canadian Rockies · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 10

What happened to the term "off the beaten path"? Andy I do understand what you are saying however if I have to stay on the "TRAIL" then I might as well just go to the mall or amusement park. Are the routes you climb on a designated trail? All the bouldering in Vegas has trails leading to each problem? Should I engage in sexual relations with my wife on the trail too? Go out explore and enjoy. We are slowly loosing our sense of adventure. If people didn't deviate from trails then how would we know where to build the next trail?

David Stowe · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 70
Andre Dupas wrote:What happened to the term "off the beaten path"? Andy I do understand what you are saying however if I have to stay on the "TRAIL" then I might as well just go to the mall or amusement park. Are the routes you climb on a designated trail? All the bouldering in Vegas has trails leading to each problem? Should I engage in sexual relations with my wife on the trail too? Go out explore and enjoy. We are slowly loosing our sense of adventure. If people didn't deviate from trails then how would we know where to build the next trail?
Not sure if you have been to Red Rocks, but the areas Andy mentioned around the first and second pullouts are heavily used by climbers, hikers, and tons of tourists. They probably see hundreds of people every week this time of year. That volume will certainly do damage to the environment. If you want to have parks like Red Rocks to visit and enjoy then maybe you should actually show some responsibility instead of spouting off like an ass. What sense of adventure is there at the second pullout by going off trail within full view of 50 others as well as a full parking lot. If you want to satisfy your sense of adventure go bushwhack up Oak Creek canyon or hike out to Windy Peak. Your off trail impact there will be minimal and you will actually be out in the wilderness by yourself. No need to be a jerk to locals who are trying to preserve a finite resource.
Andre Dupas · · Canadian Rockies · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 10

Best thing about the desert is there is more sand under the sand.

Jeff Chrisler · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 145

Andre, you sir are an old curmudgeon. Well done at proving you are a true ass. Have you even been to Red Rocks? You still fail to answer that question.

The desert although it may not seem like it, has a lot of delicate plants and animal life going on. Heck some of it isn't even delicate, but having hundreds of people walk over it would make it so.

Places like this need to have designated trails, and until you get way out there, where there aren't hundreds following in your curmudgeonny footsteps you should stay on the trail! Simple as that.

Finally, it's losing, not loosing.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Nevada
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