tying in: Bowline with backup

I saw an instructor using a knot other than the retrace figure 8. I asked and was told it was a bowline. Looked like a double bowline (if there is such a thing) with a double overhand backup.

He wouldn't show me how to tie it, saying that it was easy to do wrong and have it come undone whilst climbing. But apparently if a lead fall is,taken on it, it's much easier to untie than a retrace figure 8.

Thoughts, experiences, opinions?

The bowline is urban legend.

There is only the figure 8. Google it, the knot does not exist.

I've used it and I'm back to the 8. Its tied and true:)

Don't let arrogant instructors boggle your mind much better to take advice from a pro
The bowline does exist nice legs is a bad TROLL
and the instructor is spot on except for the huge ego and show off ness of his behavior
Try tying it around one of your many limbs instead of a harness

I would say that not showing you how to properly tie a knot, such as, the bowline which is used by some, is not a good sign.

Why would he not show you?

The bowline is a useful knot, and can be used to tie into your harness. The eight follow through is useful as well for the same purpose.

Any knot can be useless if tied incorrectly.

I have found that the eight is more quickly and easily untied than a backed up bowline, but your mileage may vary.

I use the eight myself, but also know how to utilize more than just one specific knot.

Not showing you how to tie a proper knot, and explaining the pros and cons would give me pause. What happens if you climb with someone, like me, who uses the bowline for certain situations and you are not aware of what the knot is or why it would be used?

I would ask questions and if not sufficiently answered... I would probably not give much faith in this instructor's teaching abilities.

Craig Connally author of the The Mountaineering Handbook favors the Yosemite Bowline over the figure 8, for a variety of reasons, mostly that it can be untied easily especially in wet or freezing conditions.

It would appear that to be safe the knot needs to be threaded and tightened correctly. If before the knot is fully tightened down one of the loops moves above the other the safety of the knot can be compromised. It is quite subtle, and demonstrated in this video:

youtube.com/watch?v=1dj5Y3h…

If you are competent in tying the knot it would be fine as a tie in. However, most people are unfamiliar with the knot (at least that I have met) and may not catch an incorrectly tied knot. This reason alone would make me reluctant to tie any other knot than a figure 8 as a tie-in knot.

There are lots of threads about this that you can find if you do a search. It is one of those topics that comes up periodically and gets beaten to death, so there is a lot to read if you wish. Probably a good thing to read through the pros and cons if you are not familiar.

Personally, I use the double bowline with a double fishermans stopper knot for tying-in or where most use a figure 8, unless I am tying a bite that I will be clipping with a biner. It works well for me and I can tie it in my sleep in the dark. I can later undo them even if I have had a rope hanging off a tree and been jugging up and down the thing while route cleaning or even if I had to leave it out in the weather for a while. I am also very methodical about making sure it is tied correctly and snugged up well, which you should do with any knot. I have never personally liked the Yosemite finish.

Bowlines are for socialists

I've been using the bowline for years as a tie in knot, love it!

Here is a long thread on the subject:

mountainproject.com/v/figur…

I prefer to tie in with a bowline with a yosemite finish over the figure 8. I can understand where the instructor was coming from when he said he wouldn't show you how to do it. It's much easier to screw up a bowline and any novice climber should most definitely tie-in with a figure 8. That being said he definitely could have at least shown you how to tie a bowline and explained the advantages and disadvantages of both knots.

I'd tie in with the bowline at the gym - except 'tis not allowed.

Some people tie in with the figure eight, others the bowline. The two types of people generally tend to hate each other.

The problem with the bowline is that everyone and their dawg has their own private little variation

There are entire threads on MP trying to figure out and argue about which bowline variations are "safe"

I dont care if my partner uses one, i just tell em i cant check their variation and its up to them to do so

A fig 8 on the other hand is pretty easy to spot and check at a glance

;)

If you tie your knot properly, you don't need to waste rope and time tying a backup. The Yosemite method of tucking the loose end into the double bowline, or figure-eight, adds strength to either knot (by reducing the sharpness of bends in the rope) and reduces the risk of the knot becoming untied. Whatever knot you use, dressing it neatly — and snugging it up by pulling on each strand coming out of the knot — will prevent the knot from becoming untied. I see lots of climbers tying sloppy figure-eights.

I like the rethreaded bowline with a stopper finish knot. Much less concern about untying by itself and it retains the normal bowline advantage of being easier to deliberately untie. Takes about the same amount of rope as a figure of eight with a stopper knot but, it is easier make a mistake while tying it.

Mathias,

It's amazing how this topic brings out the venom, and never seems to go away.

Your tie-in knot is personal preference. Both knots have certain advantages.

The bowlines-come-untied slander has persisted for decades. (Am I the only one who remembers the incident, widely reported in the magazines, when this happened?) Just remember that ANY knot can come untied if you don't tighten and finish it properly.

The big advantage of the Figure-8 is that it's easy to teach, learn and visually check which is why it's preferred by insurance company lawyers, and therefore every sueable organization that teaches climbing; which is why so many climbers use it.

Another advantage of the Figure-8 is....... Ah, let me get back to you on that.

I will use this not when I don't have a harness, (usually run into friends climbing while biking/running)....was shown this by Jimmy Dunn, I'm not sure he even owns a harness.

Yes England just wrap any limb

The bowline needs a back-up, the figure 8 already has one. The last pass through on the figure 8 is redundant and the knot is just as strong without it.

^^ That's why I tie a follow-through bowline. Looked for pictures of it, but can't fine any.. Bonus points for the follow through bowline because two strands of rope go through your tie-in point.

For multi-pitch trad I stick with the 8.

Bill Lawry wrote:I'd tie in with the bowline at the gym - except 'tis not allowed.