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Two simultaneous top rope setups on one set of bolts?

Original Post
Paul Vervalin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 41

This should be interesting :-)

Couldn't find answers to this after trying several searches. So, apologies if this has already been covered elsewhere in a thread.

Assumptions:
1) Bolts and hangers are bomber.
2) Care is taken to insure rope is not rubbing rope, etc
3) Bolts are at the top of a "face climb" where there is plenty of room for each climber to work the face (i.e. not a crack climb with climbers stepping on each other).
4) Two separate belayers each watching and managing there own climber.

So the question is, does anyone see any issue with setting up two top ropes through one set of bolts (as pictured)? Reason obviously would be so two people could climb on top rope at the same time (most likely not at the top together). Just curious what the climbing community at large thinks about this....

Paul

Example of two simultaneous top rope setups:

K Weber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 15

Seems dumb to have two climbers in close proximity.

Climber's experience would be severely diminished too.

Chris Massey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 5

No one going to die but does not sound like much fun. They will be on the same plumb line. Someone is going to swing into the other at some point in a fall. Maybe they can go piggy back when they lower off.

Paul Zander · · Bern, CH · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 739

Might be nice to use some directionals to reduce Klick-Klacking

Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,203

Yer all gonna die.

The set up is fine. The only issue as you note is making sure ropes and cordage do not rub especially when lowering. Also if possible make sure they are directionally equally loaded. And as said one concern is climbers falling and swinging into each other. If possible place a piece to act as directional to reduce that possibility.

Johnathan C · · Missouri · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 85

Looking at that setup, my main question is: would the forces generated by a fall (or even resting) with two different climbers in two different directions stress the bolts out too much? It seems like there would be too much opposing force between the two climbers on those bolts. Bolts may be pretty damn tough, and I know you said these ones were bomber, and I know this is for top roping (so nasty whippers aren't a concern) but I still question how they might hold up to the kind of stress the opposing forces may present.

Not really an answer, but just another point you may want to consider

Scott Bissi · · Cazenovia, New York · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 5

In the dmm pivot video they just belay 2 people up on a single masterpoint. They are climbing separate routes just as you are saying. Check it out. I actually just bought one and can't wait to try it out. Not the belaying 2 seconds but jist want to climb in general lol

FourT6and2 ... · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 45

I was out climbing last weekend. Went to set a top anchor on two bolts and come to find out there was another group up there already setting anchor and they had clipped in on two bolts that yet another group was already using and climbing on. Then another, third group, attached their rope to one of the bolts in that group. So three climbers using the same two bolts. The bolts were at the top of a route that comes to a point and there are multiple routes going off to either side. So nobody was physically climbing the same route, but they were all attached to the same two bolts.

I asked if that was common because it seemed sketchy to me. They said it wasn't "common" common, but it does happen from time to time. Nobody seemed concerned about it. Still... I didn't like it.

tomW · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2011 · Points: 10

The biggest concern here is one of the ropes running over the other rope or equally important, the cord or webbing of the other anchor. Generally, The two ropes will be moving from time to time, which will limit the rope on rope rubbing at any particular spot. If the rope rubs against the other anchor, perhaps when the direction of load changes from climbing to lowering, you could have a full half a rope length rubbing against a single point on the anchor. Fortunately the anchors shown here have two legs so you won't likely fall, but you may destroy your cord or draw super fast. Materials like dynema will be even more susceptible to this damage.

Nick Turtura · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 25

It's fine, in fact good if you're trying to climb beside someone or some kid that you are teaching. Would I anchor over someone I didn't know. Heck no.

patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
Johnathan C wrote:Looking at that setup, my main question is: would the forces generated by a fall (or even resting) with two different climbers in two different directions stress the bolts out too much?
No.

Johnathan C wrote:It seems like there would be too much opposing force between the two climbers on those bolts.
'Opposing' forces isn't a problem.

Nick Turtura wrote:It's fine, in fact good
Really? Its fine until it isn't. If the users are not careful you could EASILY have one rope cut the other.

The potential for rope rubbing is high when lowering. If one climber is resting while the other climber is being lowered then you have a serious situation that could result in death.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1_xOq3uoQQo

I would avoid it completely. But if you do want to do it then you need to have one climb on one bolt and the other climb on the other to avoid interference issues. You can still have redundancy by clipping the points together up top.
One bolt is more than enough strength for factor 2 lead falls let alone top rope forces.
tim · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 507

Redefining the top rope gang bang!

Jimmy Downhillinthesnow · · Fort Collins, CO / Seattle, WA · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 10
FourT6and2 wrote:I I asked if that was common because it seemed sketchy to me. They said it wasn't "common" common, but it does happen from time to time. Nobody seemed concerned about it. Still... I didn't like it.
Similar situations happen all the time on popular multi-pitch routes with bolted anchors. The follower of the first party might still be at the anchor when the leader of the second party brings up his follower, and then you have 3 people at the bolted anchor. Not a big deal, assuming everyone can fit on the belay ledge.
Paul Vervalin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 41

Thanks for the replies everyone.... Good point on the directional. The quad already is. The draws are used in the example as they are "shorter" to reduce MP interference but I could replace the draws with another shorter (or longer) quad or even an equalized "Magic X" with a couple of runners (knotted to reduce extension).

Yep, this would be used mostly with more or less new climbers on a really easy 5.4/5.5 face climb so a more experienced climber could "climb along" to watch and advise if necessary.

Again thanks!!!

Paul

patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
Paul Vervalin wrote:Thanks for the replies everyone.... Good point on the directional. The quad already is.
It seems you don't know the meaning of a directional.

Paul Vervalin wrote:The draws are used in the example as they are "shorter" to reduce MP interference but I could replace the draws with another shorter (or longer) quad or even an equalized "Magic X" with a couple of runners (knotted to reduce extension).
Great so now you add the potential of the rope running against the slings of the other TR anchor.

Paul Vervalin wrote:Yep, this would be used mostly with more or less new climbers on a really easy 5.4/5.5 face climb so a more experienced climber could "climb along" to watch and advise if necessary. Again thanks!!! Paul
Perfect! New climbers, rope cutting... What could possibly go wrong.

SERIOUSLY DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE DANGERS OF ROPE AGAINST ROPE RUBBING. PEOPLE HAVE DIED LIKE THIS.


Like I said. If you insist on doing this. Separate the top rope anchors to one per bolt. That would be much safer. They can both back each other up, but the master points MUST be have a separate plumb line.
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

I don't know where you are trying to do this at but if it is 2 bolted routes that are side by side and share anchors I would run both into the top bolts / put some trade to redirect the rope away from each other. Make sure the the setup at the anchor is different lengths so there is no moving parts rubbing.

That or just take turns climbing, seems unnecessary to me.

Michael Spiesbach · · Boulder, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 105

That happens on nosedive and retribution in the Gunks every single weekend.. it's fin.. keep the ropes apart.. and the climbers for that matter with directional..

FourT6and2 ... · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 45
James Sledd wrote: Similar situations happen all the time on popular multi-pitch routes with bolted anchors. The follower of the first party might still be at the anchor when the leader of the second party brings up his follower, and then you have 3 people at the bolted anchor. Not a big deal, assuming everyone can fit on the belay ledge.
Maybe the type of rock is a factor though. In my situation, it was soft sandstone. I wouldn't want three people top roping off the same two bolts. That's the weight of 6 people at once, right? It worked out, nothing bad happened. But if it were granite or something I would've been more confident.
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
FourT6and2 wrote:That's the weight of 6 people at once, right?
Double that again for a fall on top rope. Even a slump on a slack free roe produces 2x peak force. So you have 12 x 100kg worst case scenario. Which still only gives 12kN. Bolts are fine.
Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175

climbing friend,

you are going to do the dying

Jon Frisby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 270

How is this any different from belaying two followers? I do that on gear anchors (obviously with caveats regarding rope/rope contact)\
ETA: just read your thread and why??????????????????????? Just yell at them from the ground or top of the pitch same as anyone else

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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