Greetings Folks,

Thanks for the good info that has been available on this forum.

I have a quick thought and a question.

Been climbing for more than 15 years but finally want to get serious about training. I weight train consistently and can do like 25 pull-ups. Been reading the "Self Coached Climber," as well as the nice article on training on RC.com. Looking to train hard here in Japan from next month, but i will be limited to about 1-2 days a week, outdoors.

My thoughts are to skip the ARC phase. I have read a fair bit about interval training and especially the research of Dr. Tabata that showed that anaerobic, interval training raised both aerobic and anaerobic performance significantly. In fact, for the stationary bike, the interval trainees matched the aerobic development of the standard (aerobic) control group. Thus, my thoughts are that if time is limited, sticking to anaerobic workouts would be most productive.

If i can recall from memory, it seems that a lot of the research quoted in the "Self-Coached Climber" was from before some of these landmark studies on anaerobic training. What do you think?

Thanks for your input!

Cheers from Osaka,
john

P.S. To the above.... I see that Rock Prodigy's article does mention that he now mostly skips the ARC phase (or does it once a year), though he recommends it for beginners.

Still curious to know your thoughts and experiences.

j.s.

Yes, anaerobic training should be the highest priority. If you had unlimited time, I would recommend some ARC training, but if something has to go, the first to go should be the ARC workouts, unless you are a novice, in which case you shouldn't be "training" as much as "practicing" (speak up if you don't understand the difference).

Ever since I had kids, it seems like I have much less time to train, and I rarely do pure ARC workouts now. That said, I still do ARC a lot, but now it's usually as a warmup and cool down for other workouts on those days that I train in another fashion (hangboard/campus/bouldering/4x4s, etc.). I still manage to do an ARC phase once a year or so.

Not trying to hijack the thread but I think this may have some relevance. What about a modified ARC phase? Lately I have been playing around with a sort of walk,jog,sprint type phase. My home wall is set up in 3 different segments an 8,30,and 15 degree overhang. Once I'm finished warming up I will move slow across the 8 degree wall, at a moderate pace on the 15 degree wall and boulder as hard as I can on the 30 without falling off, shake out on some jugs and reapeat for 30 min or so. By the end I'm pouring with sweat and my forearms are worked!

I started doing this since I found after a couple of extended ARC sessions that grinding out 45 minutes of Arc'ing can get just plain boring after a month's time. I've assumed this to be a modified ARC/PE phase that I am trying during the summer months probably doing this 4 days a week, threshold bouldering 1 day a week and climbing trad routes 1 day a week. Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with this kind of modification? Thanks,

David

It would be really helpful to know what your climbing goals are, and what training program you plan to follow to achieve those goals. Your question is a bit confusing because you start by saying you want to SKIP ARCing, and then you imply that you want to REPLACE it with anaerobic training (by citing a study about aero vs. anaero). Is your plan to start your training cycle with some form of anaerobic training (instead of ARCing), and then from there move into the hypertrohpy phase? Or do you intend to just skip that phase entirely and begin your cycle with a hypertrophy phase? (Or do you have no idea what I'm talking about?)

In either case, if you are planning to follow the PRC/Rockprodigy training cycle, I would recommend that you do some ARCing.
I tried go from a rest phase directly into hypertrophy once and the results were unfavorable. ARCing provides a training base that prepares the body for upcoming training loads. It is also the primary opportunity to learn & practive new movement techniques.

I'm not familiar with Tabata's landmark research, but the benefits of interval training have been well known for decades. The problem with anaerobic training is that it takes an enormous toll on the body and, after a nice performance peak, it usually causes burnout (decline in performance & motivation). For this reason, its generally undesirable at the beginning of a training cycle, since you will be burning out right around the time you get off the hangboard.

Dave,

This sounds sorta like a Fartlek workout, with brief periods of anaerobic exhersion. I think in priciple that is probably not a bad thing. However, I don't think its necessarily wise to correlate "amount of sweat" to "benefit of training". There is no doubt that anaerobic training will make you sweat a lot more, but that is not necessarily desirable. Like I said in the previous post, if you're doing this at the beginning of the training cycle, you need to be conscious of the potential negative side-effects of anaerobic training. I would recommend that you avoid crossing the anaerobic threshold for long periods of time.

I suppose ideally you would ARC right at you anaerobic threshold, but at the same time, I think Fartlek style training is very specific to route climbing, since most on-sighting is done in the aerobic zone, with brief periods of anaerobic effort in the crux sections. Its useful to train your body for this type of stress, in particular its useful to be able to come back down into the aerobic zone after you get pumped.

Unlike the experts on the subject (the Anderson Bro's) I do not have a bunch of experience with formal training cycles...I just tend to listen to my body and mix it up a bit. Some might say this is not training, but whatever...it works for me. That said if you are looking at a period of time where it is tough to get to the rocks I would say that is perfect for hypertrophy and recruitment training. It might not be the best in terms of a peaking cycle, but usually maximizing your strength gains requires you to lay off your climbing, doing both often leads to injury.

Anaerobic Threshold or PE training is best reserved for right before you peak, as you are mainly training cellular energy systems. You will usually end up hurt if you do this type of training for long periods of time. Maybe this is not what you are referring to speaking about anaerobic training.

With 15+ years of climbing under your belt I am guessing you have a good base of climbing specific strength. If I were in your shoes I would probably only use my systems wall to gain some strength, others prefer campusing or hang boarding.

I would recommend looking into other training programs out there that might suit your particular situation better than a 4-3-2-1 or Rockprodigy program. There are many high end climbers who feel this type of cycle is not the best for them. The British in particular do things completely different, and still seem to climb pretty well (Moon, Macleod, Gresham, etc.)

Here is a few links for you:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=274502
http://www.davemacleod.com/articles.htm
http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.com/
http://usa.moonclimbing.com/school-room-c-334.html



Good Luck.

Right on folks! Thanks for the thoughtful input.

Monomaniac properly points out that I haven't settled on the overall structure of my training plan, but i will likely use some variation of periodization, probably going from an anaerobic endurance phase into a hypertrophic phase. One thing that weight training has taught me is a certain empirical skill to determine how my body is doing with a particular approach or stage.

The goals side is well set though. The first is simply to be able to lead any type of trad Yosemite 5.10, and the second is to pull off the Nose in good style. I have spottily led 5.10s before, but not consistently and not for all types (e.g. offwidths, supersteep, etc). I think these goals require leading something like 5.11c sport.

Kevin, very grateful for the links to some other ideas. Looking forward to checking it out. I will post up a more detailed plan later and how it comes to pass [it is far too hot currently in Kansai to train outdoors intensely].

Many thanks!
john

Are you referring to specific workouts? or an entire week/month long phase?

Don't forget the impact of injury. I was doing weights at least once a week and core strengthening at the end of every workout. I have less time now and got bored with it...well now I have a lower back injury that has forced me into 6 weeks off more or less. There were other factors involved in the injury, but not training those muscles properly didn't help.

I guess my point is that sometimes you need a lower volume level of workout. There might also be times when you need some pure recovery time, either a workout where you are just too tired to workout properly or perhaps a few weeks of down time for your body to reload. Most pros in all sports these days have a point in the year of low intensity training.

I used to train for cycling by always going out for a hard ride. Problem was I ended up riding always at about 85%. Once I read up on interval training and building up to a peak I noticed much larger gains in performance. I think this can exist on a workout level and also through a training regimen of many weeks/months. Maybe you should focus mainly on higher intensity training, but also keep some Aerobic low level buildup and recovery in there as well.

Besides to climb the NOSE requires many hours of low level slogging as well as high intensity Anerobic output and this requires a lot of endurance + power. Your body can't always train at peak levels so again don't just throw out the Aerobic phase.

I should post just one example of the type of research I am talking about above. Here is the essence of a 2005 study:

"The 2005 studies, published in the Journal of Applied Physiology, showed that three to seven all-out sprints on a stationary bicycle (250% of VO2 max), 30-seconds each, with four-minute rest periods, six times over two weeks, are as effective as 90 to 120 minutes of cycling at moderate intensity (65% of VO2 max) six times over two weeks. Both workouts improved endurance capacity by almost 100%, increasing time to fatigue at 80% effort from 26 minutes to 51 minutes. In short, about 15 minutes of hard sprints spread over two weeks produced the same results as nine to 12 hours of moderate intensity effort."

From here:
http://cbass.com/AerobicsNeedIt.htm

Greetings Paul. You points are well taken especially with respect to injury. Glad to hear you have found good results with interval training. Intervals and high-intensity training has sorta changed my approach to fitness.

Cheers,
john

OK, now we are getting into the realm of what I would consider my expertise. I have been into speed climbing and alpine climbing for the last 10 years, and I can tell you that you can periodize the crap out of yourself and still fail miserably if you do not focus on training for the goal at hand. If your goal is to climb the Nose(i'm assuming in a day), then why are you choosing training programs designed for competition and sport climbing? If your goal is to free the Nose I would say something different.

I can guarantee if you attempt to free climb into the 5.11 range on the Nose you will decrease your chances of climbing it at all significantly. Like Paul said, it is about the grind...pitch after pitch of consistent movement.

With speed climbing technical skills are more important than strength. No amount of anaerobic climbing training will prepare you properly for this type of workout. Actually it can decrease your chances of success because as you increase your recruitment you limit your blood flow. This is why Hans Florine will always be faster than Fred Nicole.

In your case I would almost recommend that ALL you do is ARC climbing, with some additional focus on the strengthing the biceps to have the endurance for jumaring. You want to build up to 12+ hour days of excercise with 3-5 day rests in between. Lower body fitness is almost as important in speed climbing as climbing is. If you split leads you will be doing 1500 feet of stairmaster type work in a day.

Two years ago I climbed the NIAD(in 12 hours) with only a few days on the rock in the previous 3 months. I did a bunch of hiking though, and I had already developed the skills and techniques for moving over stone efficiently. You need to be solid and fast at Yosemite style crack climbing. You need to be able to french-free and aid efficiently. Most important and the hardest to train away from the rock is the ability to follow pitches on jumars. If you try to free and follow (i.e belay) you will make it much, much harder.

If you would like some additional info on designing a training program feel free to email me. You will have a hard time finding any relevant information on the web, as most training programs are for climbing 100 foot or less pitches. It is the difference between training for a sprint and a marathon. I will say that fartleg type intervals will be beneficial to your jugging. Hypertrophy, and recruitment training will have a very minimal impact.

I agree with Kevin, pretty much. If you were able to climb outside (which it sounds like you're not), I would suggest going to the crag and trying to do as many pitches in a day as possible in the 5.10 range.

Good Evening (here in Japan!),

Thanks for your input, Kevin and Mike. Yeah, to be honest, I was having trouble visualizing how some of these periodization approaches would play into my goals. Nothing that i know of on the Nose would be particularly well suited to say campus training.

NAID in 12 hours! Steve, you are my hero.

I may simply revert to a simple scheme that sees me getting as much milage outdoors at on 5.10 and 5.11s as possible. I do a lot of top-rope soloing, which lets me log some serious laps. Will include jugging laps in there too. Good suggestion. Wow, you all completely talked me out of my initial plans! Nice work.

I climbed and led all the pitches on the South Face of the Washington column, and it was quite taxing for me with a haul bag in 100 degree heat. Technically it went fairly well though. Also, there is a lot of specificity in Yosemite climbing too: a lot of friction, offwidths, dihedrals, pendulums, and so forth. Thus, i am coming up with a list of pre-climbs to tic before the big show, like Serenity/Sons of Yesterday.

Right on! Very helpful discussion. many thanks. arigato gozaimashita!

Cheers,
john

Do you have access to a rotating wall? If so they are incredible for ARC training. Training on a rotating wall has increased my base ability tenfold. It seems I can climb 5.10 forever after being on that thing.

Also get all your systems dialed in: rope management, gear swaps, hydration, food, jumaring quickly, fast aiding, etc...all of these little time expenditures add up a lot over 3000 feet. Don't forget to plan some time in for getting used to the rock in the Valley again.

I hear you about short bursts of hard intensity, however there is a reason Tour de France cyclists spend 4-6 hours on the bike 5-6 days a week. I'm pretty sure Lance Armstrong doesn't just do sprint intervals, he does them, but at the same time he is doing the 9-12 hours on the bike also. For the NAID you might want to do some of both. Though it seems your time might be limited.

Again I'd emphasize not getting injured. Sounds like you already have been climbing and might have sufficient forearm tendon strength. When I first started I really tweaked my elbows trying to climb too hard too fast. After about 2 years my tendons seem to be catching up finally. I had to go back and do A LOT of ARC training to build everything up.

Yeah, a couple other points. First, I think BY FAR the best way to prepare for granite climbing of any kind is to do as much granite slab climbing as possible. This will hone your granite footwork which will make every pitch (whether it's a slab or not) feel much easier.

The 2nd point is about the cited article. That is a very interesting result, and it warrants further study that is specific to rock climbing, but that study in itself is no reason to abandon decades of research and practice in sports physiology. For starters, stationary cycling has very little in common with climbing. It has almost no technique component and the motions are very isolated and repetitive. Even if you wanted to apply the principle of the study to climbing (that short high intensity workouts are as effective as much longer low intensity workouts), you would need to do more volume in order to hit all of the different muscles in the forearms that create the different grip positions.

Another issue with studies like these is that the metric is very specific. Notice they measured "endurance" (a very broad term) by timing how long it takes an athlete to "fatigue" (what does that mean?) from steady state work at 80% of max. That's an interesting way to measure "endurance", but it has little relevance to cyclists. Cyclists want to know if they win the race or not, or their time on a time trial course. That's sort of related to how long it takes to "get tired", but it's not the same.

Finally, the study duration is unusual. 2 weeks?! The only people I know of who train in 2 week intervals are the sorry bastards I see in the military who start "training" for their annual fitness test a robust 2 weeks before the test. That's just enough time for them to get injured so they can get excused from the test by the doctor. What happens after 6 weeks or 6 months of training this way? This kind of sounds like my campus board training sessions. I'll campus for 2 or 3 weeks, and you do see pretty amazing improvement in that time, but if you did it for 2 months you would get injured, and if you didn't get injured, your improvement would taper off significantly. What we should be searching for is a long term, sustainable training program, and I'm skeptical that 15 minutes of training every 2 weeks is going to be the final answer.

So, while the results of the study sound very exciting, you have to be careful because the test conditions are not very well related to what we do in practice.

Greetings Gents,


Love the continuing intelligent dialogue. It is really getting me psyched.

Paul, i trained on a treadwall for about a week a couple of years ago and positively loved it. I am really surprised they have not caught on more. I have only seen one in my life and there isn't one nearby here in Japan as far as i know. I totally hear you with respect to getting back into the Yosemite feel. I spent a couple of months there, in my twenties. It was amazing just how much even high-level climbers had to adjust to things there. I am teaching college and just finishing my PhD, so i hope that i can find a few weeks for a trip before the wall trip, to get back in the swing.

My tendons are generally good. Doing front levers, hanging pikes, and bench press recently has me a little concerned about my rotator cuff development. I need to apply some specific training here.

Mike's point about slab training is right on and one Paul probably agrees with. I will definitely put Crest Jewel on my pre tic list.


Shit… got to run of to a tudoring session! Will comment later on Mike's comments re: high intensity training.

Cheers,
john

One more comment....If you do go to Yosemite before your wall trip just go climb on the Nose. Freeblast will also work. Nothing else in Yosemite is quite the same as the Capt'n. The first 4 pitches of the Nose will make or break your attempt, and with an extra rope it is easy to bail. Climb to Sickle in the afternoon once the temps cool. Then climb to Dolt on another trip(maybe stash some H20 there). Rest for 2 days and go for it.

If you are a strong free climber make sure your partner can aid efficiently. If your partner is a stronger free climber I would spend most of my time working on the aiding and jugging.

Regarding Mike's comments on the training article, it is always interesting to me how many experiments seem to mirror the results that were expected or sought after. Now days it seems the McDonald's approach to fitness is becoming all the rage(Crossfit et. al.) These programs can be effective for highly trained people because variation is key to continuing to adapt. They are a disaster for the average Joe who shouldn't probably even be attempting most of the exercises in the first place.

They remind me of the diet pill fad. All you need is this little bit of magic and you too can have a ripped body, even if you are currently 20 pounds overweight and sedentary.

It just goes to show you how gullible the average American is.

Greetings Kevin and Mike,

I agree that climbing on the El Cap is unique and valuable prep. I have done the first five pitches of the free-blast. I think your mind has to get used to that sea of granite you are swimming in.

Now to the discussion of recent training research. I still think this is a pretty big deal, but I agree with Mike and my own results of training like this with a stationary bike suggest that there is a taper to the dramatic initial effects. Kevin, i would hesitate to call it a "MacDodnald's approach." High intensity training like the "Tabata protocal" is positively brutal. The average person simply won't continue doing it. I have been using high intensity weight training for years, and it is pretty remarkable how few sets done at maximum effort only once a week can get you damn ripped.

I think after building up to a level of strength with a hangboard or campusing, you can maintain that with probably minutes a week, which is consistent with this line of thought.

Check this out for a primer on the Tabata protocal:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1608/is_5_20/ai_n6011>>>>>

Better get back to the dissertation! Cheers!

john

I think there is great input from so many people here.

Hey Aerili,

I see your point. Are you a personal trainer or academic?

Truly have gotten some good advice here. Looking forward to getting out and getting started.

Right on! Cheers from Osaka,
john

John, I consider myself both. ;-)