Trick to pulling a fixed rap line

I saw somewhere on a forum a diagram and explanation of a way one could still retrieve a rap line from the anchors even if it is "fixed" in order to get a full rope length for your rappel. I recall it used a couple of quickdraws on the 2 anchor points with the rope running through a certain way so as to allow you to still retrieve your rope from below. Can anyone clue me in how this is done or post a diagram? (I thought it might be a Petzl tip but I have yet to find it).

I use a similar technique occasionally, where the rope runs through the anchor and then is tied to a carabiner which is clipped to the rope below the anchor. a 200+ foot long 5mm cord is then tied to the carabiner. the small cord is carried in a small stuff sack which was modified with a piece of vinyl tubing threaded through lip of the stuff sack where the draw string used to be. The stuff sack it attached to the harness with some short pieces of small cord and the cord is allowed to pay out as I rappel. At the end of the rappel, the small cord is pulled which makes the carabiner travel down the rope like a cable car, and the cord is stacked into the stuff sack as it is pulled by my partner. It works pretty well, as long as there isn't a bunch of wind to whip the little cord around or plants for it to snag on.

^^^That's a good trick. The only concern is getting the biner/knot stuck. If you're having a hard time visualizing it, look up petzl's diagrams from rapping with a grigri;the concept is exaclty the same except you need a secondrope/cordalette to get full length raps.

There is also a technique I've seen but not used which was reffered to as a "texas bail." Basically, you somehow fix the rope with a mule knot and pull on one end to release it. Does anybody know about this?

Evan

Evan1984 wrote:There is also a technique I've seen but not used which was reffered to as a "texas bail." Basically, you somehow fix the rope with a mule knot and pull on one end to release it. Does anybody know about this?

Seen a releaseable bowline used. Believe their's been fatalities with its use as well.

A bad trick I've heard to to rap from a fifi hook (some hooks work better than others for this: Pika aardvark for example) then give the rope a shake, poppin' the hook off the anchor. Yeah, yikes.

There's another that uses an angle piton in a loop with stays in place as long as the rope is under tension. Once off, the pin fall free, and you can pull the rope down. Also yikes.

Most reasonable techniques seem to employ a pull cord.

canyoneeringusa.com/utah/te…

Biner block... I do mine a little different, of course. I clove to the spine of a carabiner with enough tail left to tie a figure 8, which I then clip into the carabiner used for the biner block. Just a "backup" in case, that way the figure 8 won't go though the anchor since it's a big knot. I then tie my pull cord (tag line, what ever you want to call it) to the very tail end of the rap line with an EDK, and once again, put a figure 8 in the end of the tag line, and into the same carabiner.

This has always pull clean for me and is very easy to undo after the rap. Generally when doing multi-pitch with just two people, we carry one rope and a 5mm tag line as our "second" rope. If it's just one rap down and near out packs, we don't carry the tag line, and the first person down will attach the tag line and the second person pulls it up and rigs it. Annoying at the end, but sure beats carrying two ropes.

On a side note, I don't rap with the tag cord bag anymore, I had an "issue" once. I toss it... I do have the tag line feeding though a carabiner on my harness though to keep it near me in case I have to work out any kinks in the even of a non-clean throw, or a bind up in the bag.

I like john's response, but I'm curious; what was the "issue"? also, I prefer to keep the bag with me, never had much trouble with it feeding, and this way if the rap doesn't require the whole 200 feet I don't have to restack it all.

Jesse Davidson wrote:I like john's response, but I'm curious; what was the "issue"? also, I prefer to keep the bag with me, never had much trouble with it feeding, and this way if the rap doesn't require the whole 200 feet I don't have to restack it.

I was doing a 180' free line (free hang, spider line, etc) rappel, and the tag line got bunched up in the bag and stopped feeding, next thing I knew it was shoved up in my arm pit, when I stopped , it was just above my head, but within reach. I do rap with a friction hitch of some sort, so it wasn't that big of a deal, just more annoying. Since then, I just toss it and make my partner deal with it or with the rope. There is nothing wrong at all with rapping with it. :)

It was avoidable, I should have stuffed it better in the bag. I wouldn't recommend a double length sling to hang it off your harness either. *cough* No clue why I grabbed that, but I am sure it seemed good at the time. Having to grab my ascender to get back up to the bag would have been more annoying.

For extra thrills, try the sheepshank.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep…

Thanks for the posts everyone. The canyoneering pages are exactly what I remember, as well as the Petzl page on using a blocked rappel. What I couldn't remember was how you retrieved the rope from the bottom of the rap - clearly a second rope or tag line is needed in these circumstances.

So as I understand it, this technique makes sense a lot for canyoneering and/or shorter rappels where you don't necessarily want to toss both ends of the rope down (say into a gully or water, etc.) But in the typical multi-pitch rock climbing scenario, seems you would use the traditional method of either climbing with 2 ropes (twins or halfs as many of us do anyway) or a regular single climbing rope is used for climbing and a lighter tag line is carried (5mm)to pull and retrieve. Does anyone know what the smallest diameter cord is that can be used to actually rappel on safely (full body weight, double-rope rap)? In other words, if tied to the main climbing rope with an EDK and used to rap double strand, what is the smallest diameter rope that can be used?

Here's a thought...get yourself a set of 7.5 twin ropes and stay alive!

JF

here are some results (originally offered from Avery a few forums ago, in a galaxy far far away):

xmission.com/~tmoyer/testin…

the tests rolled at around a thousand pounds, continued rolls, then failures resulting approx 1400 to 1800 lbs

bdel has one also:
blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

these had higher results

One thing to remember too whenever rappelling with two ropes, the more difference there is between the diameters of the two ropes the more "walk" the smaller line will have. So if you had a 10.5 static and tried rappelling on a 7.5 dynamic there can be significant walk by the 7.5 dynamic making the smaller line shorter.

Brian in SLC wrote: A bad trick I've heard to to rap from a fifi hook (some hooks work better than others for this: Pika aardvark for example) then give the rope a shake, poppin' the hook off the anchor.

I have actually used a trick using two opposing fifi's and bungee line attached to the knuckle hole, then tied taught to the rope. Once unweighted it pops right off the anchors. Still, sketchy as all get out. If you came across a scenario where you needed to unweight the rope for a moment, you'd be hosed.

I do use the same trick with a single fifi to bail off a bolt on a mixed line or sport line, staying on belay on the lead line and cleaning as I come down. If the fifi popped off I'd only take a lead fall.

What you need is a Decrocheur Allain (not).

This picture is from Storrick's Vertical Devices site (check picture properties for URL), but his description is wrong. The release cord was meant to be short---the last person down pulled the release, at which point the hook stayed in place by virtue of the climber's weight. The instant the rope was unweighted, sproing! the hook popped back and the device fell from your anchor directly onto your head. Too bad for you that you stopped on a ledge part way down. Hard hats advised.

Here's a French description for those who read it:

Le décrocheur qui permet de faire des rappels de 60 mètres sur une corde de 60 mètres en économisant la corde double en rappel. La corde, nouée sur un crochet à ressort, ne tient que par la tension due au poids de l’alpiniste qui descend. Dès que le grimpeur libère la corde de son poids, le système tombe avec la corde. Le système restera cependant impopulaire auprès des alpinistes.

I love the last line, ``nonetheless, the system remained unpopular with alpinists.''

Ashley (In the Ashley Book of Knots) has some heart-stopping all-rope solutions that no one in their right mind would try.

On "Man vs. Wild" Bear Grylls rapped off a cliff in Scotland with a cut sheepshank so he could retrieve his rope. To make matters worse, the rap was pretty ledgy so he had to be careful to keep tension on the rope. It was super sketchy and, frankly, idiotic that he would take such a stupid risk for a TV show. I doubt if many viewers understood the risk he was taking.

If that's not bad enough, the worst thing I've seen him do was when Will Farrel was a guest on the show and he and Bear simul-lowered over a cliff in Sweden off a dead man he created with a bundle of pinkie-sized twigs. He could have at least rapped, but no, he lowered because he didn't trust Farrel to rap on his own. It's one thing to pointlessly risk your own life, but when you have a naive person with you that is trusting you, it's borderline criminal to me.

It sure was entertaining though.

If it had been Colin Ferrel, I would call it community service.

Mike Anderson wrote:On "Man vs. Wild" Bear Grylls rapped off a cliff in Scotland with a cut sheepshank so he could retrieve his rope. To make matters worse, the rap was pretty ledgy so he had to be careful to keep tension on the rope. It was super sketchy and, frankly, idiotic that he would take such a stupid risk for a TV show. I doubt if many viewers understood the risk he was taking.

Video of him making the knot