By Mark Nelson From Coniferous, CO Mar 21, 2007
| Kevin Craig wrote: Hmmmm... Hmmmm... just read through a lot of the discussion on RC.com and looks like (everybody make sure you're sitting down) I'm wrong. I'll have to read the book still but sounds like there's a lot of data to back up the concept of switching back to sliding X's (as long as there's no chance of a factor 2 fall which *would* result in dangerous shock loading). Tell you what though, it really ticks me off that this is being brought out by the same guy who "sold" everyone on the cordolette system in the first place for a couple of reasons: a) feels like the car companies who sell you their latest model then next year tell you what a piece of crap it is and you need to buy their new model ;^D and b) (and more importantly) I just assumed all along that there was data to back-up the switch to the cordelette system. Turns out that was just a guess and might have endangered lives.
Holy crapinoly - you are actually wrong?? (sarcastic laughing all across the fruited plain)
Kev, I think one thing that makes trad anchors what they are (& why climbers aren't dropping like flies) is that lead climbers just don't fall on them. We don't go into a trad climb with the same mentality as a sport route - we get pro in on the next pitch as soon as we can or backoff & downclimb out if we can't send a section free solo. F*ck man, I don't want to test a trad anchor. But we do use the cord because it's light, gives us multiple utility applications, & works in a redundant system in a timely fashion for belaying seconds. I guess we could go see Craig's show(s) & look at the anchor work and see where the scientific method leads to his conclusions. Plus, I hear he's got some great ice shots from China.
Also, thanks (to ALL) for looking into this. I had some gut feelings the beginning of last summer about all the traffic on rc.com -- I just haven't had time to do drop testing with a field dummy/deadweight, take video/pics, make readings, find a route that I can do a full-on vertical drop safely, get people to help out, get gear to waste, etc. & even if I did do something, to make the experiment statistically viable, we're talking about a huge amount of time & $$$; though I gotta tell ya, if I did 3 each Factor 2 drops and they all failed the tech-cordalette anchor from a side angle -- son of a bitch. |  |
By Tyson S Arp Mar 21, 2007
| brenta wrote: Yes, avoiding the pulley effect is the reason to tie the cord or sling to the anchors rather than passing it through them. However, if the angle at the power point is small, the ADT with two good anchors is a lot less dangerous than many people think. We all know that the angle at the power point should be small regardless of how the anchor is rigged. With the ADT, this is particularly true. Assume isosceles triangles. While an angle of 60 degrees is usually considered OK because each anchor is subject to roughly 58% of the load, with the ADT each anchor is subject to the full load. However, if the angle is 20 degrees, each anchor is subject to 74% of the load. Not great, but already better than using just one anchor. [.... ] Maybe I should also add that I'm not advocating the use of the ADT. You are right, there is no difference. The key is to look at the angles and to the fact that there are two triangles to share the load.
OMG! I can't believe there is someone else out there that actually understands the inner working of the ADT! I argued this point on RC.com a year or so ago and nobody seemed to understand. Likewise, I'm not saying it's a great tool for anchoring, but it is highly misunderstood. It has such stigma associated with it that people will ridicule you if you suggest that there are even a few instances where it could be a useful tool and won't actually kill you! |  |
By Mark Nelson From Coniferous, CO Mar 23, 2007
| Luebben's new anchor book is out. There is a fair amount of overlap with his basic skills book. With the anchors presented there are various applications to work the No Extension & Limited Extension using: cord, slings, &/or climbing rope(s) and sometimes combining methods to get good angles and really hit that true equalization. (didn't see an application involving the Alpine Equalizer)
It looks to me that whatever the anchor rigging chosen; they all depend on the situation at hand.
One thing that really stuck out to me is the impact force generated from a static line - don't take a lead fall on one!!! Another thing was using a dynamic rope & a dynamic belay setup - that absorbs a large amount of the energy.
Neptune's (Boulder, CO) had it just under 20 bucks - similar to Mountaineers Books if you wanted to get it online:
ROCK CLIMBING ANCHORS: A Comprehensive Guide
I think The Bent Gate in Golden, CO will have the next show.
(I still don't want to test a trad anchor while climbing) |  |
By Count Chockula From Littleton, CO Mar 23, 2007
| That's pretty much the tone of Long's new book as well. He offers up the same basic principles of anchor construction he did in his previous two books, but it has been updated with much discussion of direction of pull, fall forces (very enlightening!), and the most informative part--the results of his real world drop tests of several anchor constructs.
He concludes (as does Luebben) that a properly rigged belay anchor should be a dynamic system--able to distribute the load across all anchor points as evenly as possible, although he states that true equalization in anchors consisting of more than 2 placements is somewhat of a pipe dream. Regarding redundancy in the anchor tests performed and analyzed, Long states:
"In terms of a belay anchor, a redundant anchor is different than an anchor that is merely backed up. A redundant belay anchor implies that the forces generated in a leader fall will never fall on one piece of gear. With a backed up anchor, the force falls on a single primary anchor placement, and if that fails, the force then falls on the second placement, and if that fails, the force impacts the third placement--the dreaded 'cascade' anchor failure. To avoid this cascade scenario and enjoy functional redundancy in a belay anchor, impact forces must be spread or equalized over at least two primary placements."
What I find most useful in his new book is the analysis of the drop tests performed on real anchors using the following combinations:
- Cordelette equal length - Sliding X equal length - Cordelette unequal length - Sliding X unequal length - Equalette unequal length
In a nutshell, the sliding X equal length was the superior rig, while the equalette unequal was about as effective as the sliding X unequal...which yielded excellent results. The cordelette equal performed OK but not as well as the sliding X/equalette rigs. The cordelette unequal performed poorly for the reasons quoted above.
For details on the parameters applied to the tests, check out the book. |  |
By Mark Nelson From Coniferous, CO Mar 23, 2007
| It's hard to believe, but if you review this entire topic thread from last year, we have come up and posted some really good anchor thoughts from our own experiences that kinda emulate what is also being published.
ps - Craig's shots from China & elsewhere were pretty cool. |  |
By Ron Olsen Administrator From Boulder, CO Mar 23, 2007
| Mark Nelson wrote: One thing that really stuck out to me is the impact force generated from a static line - don't take a lead fall on one!!! Another thing was using a dynamic rope & a dynamic belay setup - that absorbs a large amount of the energy. Excellent point, Mark. I sometimes have to tell less-experienced partners to tie into the belay anchor with the climbing rope, not just a daisy chain or Personal Anchor System. The rope and knots will absorb energy if the leader falls before getting in any pro.
People in Europe use special gear for clipping into cables on Via Ferrata routes, and don't just clip in with a static sling. Even a short fall on a static sling can be painful and dangerous. |  |
By Kevin Craig Mar 24, 2007
| Ron Olsen wrote: What are the multiple uses for rock shoes? For a climbing helmet? For a chalk bag? For a nut tool? Climbers use single-purpose gear all the time; the issue is utility, not how many functions it serves.
Oh come on Ron, a nut tool? Opening beers of course! :^D
But yeah you make a good point OTOH, a cordelette can be used to equalize anchors (statically or dynamically), escape the belay, ascend the rope, (cheaply) cut up for v-threads or other bail/rap anchors and probably several other things I don't remember. The AE can be used to equalize anchors... then I still have to carry a cordelette for these other uses. On yet another hand, however, I should really have 2 cordelettes - 1 for anchors and 1 for rescue etc. so maybe there's no difference. I guess it all comes down to personal preferences.
I've had a chance to read through part of Long's and Luebben's books now and looks like the main thing, big surprise, is using the right tool for the right situation. I *will* be using the equalette and/or sliding V's or W's more often than in the past however. |  |
By Kevin Craig Mar 24, 2007
| Mark Nelson wrote: Holy crapinoly - you are actually wrong?? (sarcastic laughing all across the fruited plain)
Yeah, well I've got the occasional strong opinion, ;^) but I'm also a big believer in data. :^) Which is actually what makes me cranky that the pre-equalized cordelette (and the discouragement (sic) of using the "magic" X) doesn't seem like it was all that strongly based in data. Of course, neither was ice screw placement/strength until Craig tested those.
You're right though, the good news is that very few people ever test trad anchors at anywhere near their limit. Which is good no matter how you slice it (no pun intended).
I plan to attend Craig's show at Bent Gate on April 10 and maybe we can have some anchor discussions as well. |  |
By Ron Olsen Administrator From Boulder, CO Mar 24, 2007
| Mark Nelson wrote: If I lead above the anchor and can't find a placement; I can't fall. This is critically important, especially if the anchor is not totally bombproof.
One of the saddest accidents in recent times is the 1000' fall off the DNB in Yosemite that happened to Tom Dunwiddie and Monika Eldridge back in July, 2001. Tom was leading and fell directly on the anchor before getting in any pro. The anchor failed, and they both plunged to their deaths. Tom was 50 years old and Monika was 40 at the time of the accident. Tom lived in Denver; Monika in Boulder. Both were very experienced trad climbers.
Here is a comment on the accident from someone who was in Yosemite at the time:
"I was in the Valley when this accident occured. (I was actually directly across from them on el cap when it happened) When my partner, who is a member of YOSAR, and I got down there were a few rangers and sar cordinators still in El Cap meadow analyzing the situation. We got a brief scoop on what happened then. I then talked to Lincoln Else, the climbing ranger, on Sunday and he had some more info. This is what I have heard:
The climbers were a 1000ft up at around 1:00. The leader took a fall directly onto the anchor from an unkown distance. The 4-piece anchor did not hold the fall. The anchor consisted of a .75 Camalot and a stopper equalized with two quickdraws connected to the belayer with one of their 9mm ropes. The other 9mm rope was attached to a blue Alien (I also heard it was a .5 Camalot) and small stopper equalized with clove hitches. Lincoln said they did not know if the rock around the anchor had broken or the anchor had been placed in an expanding crack. The cams had signs of a significant force being applied to them before they came out. Other than this info not much more is known.
One important thing can be learned from this situation. Always get a piece in between the leader and the belay. This one piece is extremely important. Taking a factor 2 fall onto an anchor is never an option. I know I have climbed 25ft up a pitch and not put in a piece. Not only was I putting myself at risk I was putting the whole team at risk. I am not sure if the leader in the accident neglected to put in a piece or was unable to put in a piece but if he had a piece of pro in the accident probably wouldn't have occurred. We should all think of this next time we are running it out above the anchor.
-mike schaefer" |  |
By Richard Radcliffe From Louisville, CO Mar 24, 2007
| The loss of Tom and Monika was indeed sad -- Tom was a friend. I never did try to find out what the final analysis was, but consensus at the time was pretty much like Ron said: nothing or at least nothing solid above the belay anchor with a leader fall of some indeterminate distance. Tom was very experienced, extremely safety conscious, detailed, and thorough. It is likely that what they had was perhaps the best available for that part of the climb which, I've heard from others, is hard to protect or build a decent anchor. A lot of folks on the many threads related to anchor equalization, etc. have said basically "what I've been using for years has never failed so why change to something different?" Why change is because something different may better prepare you for the unexpected which is pretty much the de facto definition of an accident. Nobody expects or wants a serious failure, but we can always try to be prepared for it. |  |
By Count Chockula From Littleton, CO Mar 24, 2007
| Richard Radcliffe wrote: A lot of folks on the many threads related to anchor equalization, etc. have said basically "what I've been using for years has never failed so why change to something different?" Why change is because something different may better prepare you for the unexpected which is pretty much the de facto definition of an accident.
Exactly. And the original purpose of this thread was to gain some insight into what the "other" possibilities, outside of the traditional cordelette anchor, might be.
Kevin Craig wrote: I've had a chance to read through part of Long's and Luebben's books now and looks like the main thing, big surprise, is using the right tool for the right situation. I *will* be using the equalette and/or sliding V's or W's more often than in the past however.
The result of folks engaging in a constructive dialogue...challenging the conventional wisdom of anchor design. Good to know I'm not the only one benefiting from this thread.
Thanks again for your insight everyone. Your collective experience has helped me a great deal.
Wish it wasn't pouring today...really planned on climbing today and skiing pow tomorrow! |  |
By Ron Olsen Administrator From Boulder, CO Apr 16, 2007
| There's an interesting new Supertopo thread on belay anchors.
Here are some comments from John Long, aka Largo:
"Probably the two most important things about the entire safety chain are A), do anything possible to safeguard against falling straight onto the belay anchors, and B), develop the skill to know, and to know for sure, what constitutes a bomber placement or primary anchor (single anchor point).
So long as you get good enough pro/primary anchors and never fall directly onto the belay anchor, you're almost certainly going to be fine. But climbing will never be without some risks. The ideal is to limit the risks. The pipe dream is to eliminate all risk, which turns the science and art of building anchors into a hellish, long-winded saga accomplishing nothing whatsoever." |  |
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