So, many routes out there don't warrant haul bags but still require 2 ropes for the descent. I don't really want to go buy a thinner rope specifically for the descent, so I'd prefer to bring up my rope and my partner's rope. The question is, how to do it. One of those goofy make-the-rope-into-a-backpack thingies? Trail the extra rope? Have the second carry a backpack big enough to fit the rope and whatever else they need? I like the last option, so I guess my real question is what's your favorite pack that's big enough for rope, jacket, bars, water, etc but still small enough that it doesnt get in the way when it's not full of a rope and won't interfere with your helmet?

We always have the leader trail the second rope as they climb. Extra weight yes, but then the second always has the opportunity to free the rope if it gets stuck.

Done it a couple of different ways, all with their own ups and downs. For routes that are moderate, we'll throw the extra rope in a rope bag and the second caries it. If it's just a single pitch or pretty vertical, the second might trail the rope. But it would have to be very clean, vertical rock to do that. No traverses or any of that stuff. Fortunately, a 70 meter rope will fit the bill in many cases.

I like your idea, Andy. Sounds better than making the second huff a backpack.

My favorite way to get the second rope to the top is to lead on doubles. No hauling or trailing involved at all!

JL

I just hate backpacks, and I do everything to avoid it. Weight above your hips just feels awkward to me. My partners and I try to avoid backpacks at all costs - usually we each have a small windbreaker and h20 bottle clipped to our harness and snacks in our pockets. So for most multipitch climbs (in good weather) we don't have a backpack. This has the added advantage of having each person have their own water and food, so people can drink/eat when they need to - not just when sharing belays.

I should have mentioned we only have the leader trail the extra rope on multipitch climbs, not long one-pitchers. And it is usually an 8 millimeter rope so the lead weight is negligible.

I'll second the double ropes suggestion. These are particularly good.

--Marc

I use doubles. Avoids the backpack issue, cuts down on rope drag, etc.
For multipitch they are my favorite.

Here is a good article on using doubles from gunks.com.
http://www.gunks.com/index.php?pageid=67&pagenum=1&smGroup=2>>>>>

Doubles are the way to go, even if you're using two 10 mils it's better than the alternatives.

Doubles if the leader is going to trail them both. Buy a skinny haul line to carry the second rope in a pack, or if you like to use a tag line.

Personally, I use doubles much more than I play tag.

Leading on doubles is my preference by a long shot.

Before I started using doubles we used to use my skinny static line as a second rap rope. We always had the leader trail it, so that the second can monitor it as it feeds to make sure there are no snags.

I always make the follower trail it, its good training for them.

I prefer twins to doubles for most rock climbing. The rope management is alot easier and the falls are shorter.

If for some reason I'm not using doubles, I'll take a 6mil tag/recovery line. I only weight the climbing rope when rapping (if there's a way for the knot to not slip thought the anchor), then use the extra skinny tag line to retrieve the rope. Usually will have the second carry the miniscule tag line in a coil over the shoulder, back pack style or in a bag.

Depending on the route most times it sucks to have something on your back. Having the second trail is risky if there any thing for the rope to snag on.

This is a system that has worked well for me. As the leader I would trail the extra rope. My belay can tell when I am off because the trail rope will suddenly take off and the lead rope has stopped moving. So when you find it hard to communicate this is an added advantage.

On windy days the wife and I never have to yell if the lead rope has stopped moving for several minutes and the tail leaves then I am off. When the lead line comes tight to the anchor and goes slack I am putting her on then I would pull the rope tight once more to say your on and then give her slack to untie as soon as she wanted the slack out all she had to do is give one tug and I take the slack out an expect her to start climbing shortly after cleaning the anchor.

Doubles do not reduce drag nor weight unless you are comparing them to two 11mm ropes.

A 7mm + a 9.4mm is lighter than Genesis doubles, and most twins too. A 9.8mm + a 7mm is about equal, depending on whose numbers you look at.

A 7mm fits into all but the smallest of packs.

For some reason, somewhere between 6mm and 7mm lies the difference between total chaos and just the occasional spaghetti. So, 7mm is as thin as I go.

The rope is your heaviest piece of gear. It is unlikely you will be climbing within a full number grade of your limit with an extra 10-20 lbs hanging on either you or your second. Hauling vs trailing vs doubles, etc, all effect this.

The trade off with thinner ropes is durability. I have a number of ropes and use different ones based on the situation. However, I'd never trail or pack anything bigger than an 8mm for anything other than an aid climb.

I often let the second tail the rope, but usually I'll just climb on two 10.0 lead lines as doubles. For some routes at the Gunks, Doubles are hard to beat and the decrease in rope drag can EASILY !!! make up for the increase in weight of having two single lines tied in to my harness.

Next up, I need to buy a pair doubles and retire my old single line to TR duty, which in my opinion, is the only thing that single lines do better than doubles.

For my local crag, I disagree with Jed. Doubles might not decrease drag on some Zion splitter cracker; but here at the Gunks, where traverses are a way of life, Doubles can reduce drag dramatically.

I think the question was which backpack for a rope, food, etc...

I'm not sure you want to carry a rope in a backpack - that is a lot of weight on your back. I agree that having the leader trail the second rope is the way to go. Also that way when the second arrives the rope can be coiled and ready for the next pitch. Rope management is key for fast alpine climbs and big walls. If you do carry a heavy backpack have the second carry it as a lot of weight on a tough pitch isn't great for the leader.

The advantage of having two lead climbing ropes is that if something goes wrong with the first lead rope you aren't left to climb on a shoestring 7 or 8mm tag line. I prefer the 8, a bit heavier, but rapping off a 7mm is pretty slim. Make sure you use the correct knot if you are tying two ropes of such differing diameter together.

The BD Bullet is a decent pack for carrying snacks, jacket, water, etc...I'm not a fan of having the water bottle slapping around on my harness and would much rather carry a small light pack and avoid that. Even when the second carries a pack with most everything in it I climb with a SUPER small camelbak - just enough water to hydrate at the belay, a small pocket for some bars, and a light jacket and hat for the belay. This way everyone has food/water/clothing so no suffering at the belay and you are ready to go for the next pitch.

The comment about 10-20 lbs of weight is misleading. You really save very little with light ropes.

From the Sterling Website

10.2 = 67gpm
9.8 = 62gpm
8.4 = 45gpm (half)
7.7 = 40gpm (twin)

Imagine I'm hitting the crux at 40 meters up.

10.2 = 5.9lbs of rope weight
9.8 = 5.45
8.4 = 7.9
7.7 = 7.0

Even with the 9.2 fusion at 53gpm, I have 4.6 pounds of rope weight on me at 40 meters.

If you end up with all the heaviest things; rope, clothes, shoes, gear, helmet, etc, you can be as much as 10-15 lbs heavier than if you'd broken the bank on lightweight stuff.

I fall into this trap too. I have all lightweight biners and I wouldn't consider a rope over 10.2. My next will be 9.4 or 9.1.

Just keep that in mind, is that extra 2-3 lbs going to make any difference?

Just thought I'd throw those numbers up there to add some reality to your decisions.

Good point, the OP was asking about backpacks.

How many pitches up are you planning on going before needing the rope? If you REALLY need a bag, I think you should consider back-packing the rope and letting the second carry it. Depending on the temps / # of pitches, this may be sufficient, and will save you some $$ as well as weight on the hike in.

OTOH, if you're going up 5 pitches before rappelling, a bag is probably going to be easier / more appropriate.

The upper-end Metolious rope bag has 2 straps, so it could be worn as a backpack (and if it's a skinny rope there's definitely room left over for other stuffs too). The nice thing here is that when you don't need to haul it up the side of a mountain, it can serve as a very nice rope bag (if you use rope bags).

Well, once again mountain project delivers a ton of great informaiton from people who are able to convincingly act like they know what they're talking about. jk. Anyway, I'm intrigued by the 6 mil recovery line idea. I had always thought the skinny line some brought was for double rope rappels, but the setup in the picture represents a whole new paradigm for me. To those who use one, how long is your tag line, 60m? 65 for stretch? Do you throw it or uncoil it as you rappel? How do you rig the anchor for rappel, the same way as shown in the picture? Ever had trouble with getting the tag line to pull? Also, if you're going to use 6mm cord, why not 5? or 4? or 3? Even the 2mm cord has a maximum breaking strength exceeding my body weight...
thanks, and keep the great info coming,
jesse

"The comment about 10-20 lbs of weight is misleading. You really save very little with light ropes."

My BW 10.5 x 60 weighs 9.7 lbs, my 9.4 x 60 is 7.5 lbs, my 7mm x 60 is 3.7 lbs. That's "reality" with my scale, not specs on the internet. Strap on an extra 6 lbs at the gym and send your favorite blue tape route and see what the "reality" of 6 lbs extra is all about. Friction in the real world can double that, easy, if you're not thinking about it. I think 10+ lbs is a fine estimate.

What about only an extra 2-3 lbs, you say? That's 2-3 #6 Friends - the big green ones nobody ever wants to carry.

Don't buy a 6mm. They hopelessly tangle every single time, and you'll cut your hands in half trying to pull a high friction rap. 7mm is really the practical minimum. They're rated at 2k lbs, which means you don't want to fall while leading out to a stuck rope, but there is some strength there to help take care of most problems.

That's a cool diagram, but I wouldn't want all that extra junk getting stuck somewhere. When combining a 7mm with a lead line, I generally put the knot on the side of the anchor such that if the 7mm were to cut, I'd be fine as long as the anchor didn't pass the knot, as most won't. The diagram above seems like an option for when the anchor will pass a knot, and the pull looks clean - which isn't often, which is probably why I've never done it. I generally don't worry about these things when I am using an 8mm, though.

Wow. 2mm tag line. I'd love to see the look on my face if my partner showed up with that for a tag line. I would imagine rapping does generate more force than our body weight alone, especially if you are swinging around....not to mention sharp edges the rope might run over.

Have people found success with a 6mm line? I tried a 7mm and didn't really feel comfortable the way it ran through the rap device and it was a bitch to keep organized. I just seemed so damn thin, though it worked just fine technically. The 8mm line inspired much more confidence for me and was easier to work with. What knot are you using to tie a 7 and 10 together?

If you are using a 9.1 or 9.4 make sure your belay device works well for it. I've had friends of friends dropped after putting thin ropes through a GriGri and not being able to stop the rope pulling through. More of a problem with autolocking devices than "normal" rap devices. Even my brand new 9.1 didn't seem to stop that well on a ATC guide...though it was also brand spanking new.

One more thing, if you are gearing up for multi-pitch climbing - go out and practice stacking a rope at a belay and coiling it for a descent. Really you should know those skills and believe me from experience - 5-10 minutes at each belay messing around with a tangle of rope really adds up pitch after pitch. They do make these rope "hooks" to help stack your rope. I've never used them just for multi-pitch, but for big wall climbing they come in handy. You can do the same thing though with a sling and two biners.

My biggest problem with hauling a rope in a backpack is the fact that the shoulder straps keep me from reaching way above my head. It's more like a hinderance and cuts into the shoulders. I prefer to trail it up.

If we needed two ropes while I'm leading, I've always had the follower drag it up. Rope bag, trail, or make the rope into a backpack-type device, whatever.