Totem vs Ultralight c4's in the purple, green, and red sizes

Which do you prefer, or would you prefer? The weight savings seems to be negligible, so I'd assume purple and green totem, red ultralight.

Also, if anyone knows where to find black totem cams. Send me a PM please!

backcountrygear.com/totem-c…

Still taking order's, although listed as back-ordered 1-2 months. Might be worth a shot though.

Ultralight's are pretty new, so I bet you'll hear a lot of totem fan's pipe up. Bit of a different market too. Their durability has also been questioned on here, due to the dyneema stem, as well as the cost/benefit analysis vs a regular C4, or other brand's ultralight cam (Metolius, anyone?)

I'd say that the red totem also may be worth it, depending on where you climb. If there are lots of pockets the small head size can be useful. Definitely get green and purple totems if you climb in an area with lots of pin scars. They can really make a difference.

I've heard from a BD employee that the c4 UL's are designed to last 3 years so that's a strike. Their springs were made of thinner gauge wire so they tend to walk more as well. All in all very underwhelmed with the c4 UL's. the Metolius UL mastercams are very impressive however.

I got my black Totem Cam (as well as the new orange one) from Rock and Snow in New Paltz.

Main use for me is El Cap routes in a Day. Anyone have discount ideas for the totems? Sounds like they are what I'd prefer.

Does anyone know anything about the hardness of the metal used for the Totem cam lobes? What I am getting at here is that one of the features that I like about Aliens is that in the small sizes the softer metal (compared to say a TCU) "bites" a bit more when loaded, which likely increases the ability of such a small surface area to not pull out. Clearly the softer metal mushrooms easier and may not last as long, but that is a potentially worthy tradeoff. Anyway, as I said, I am curious about the Totem lobe hardness....anyone?

They are supposed to be harder (as compared to the basics) but in my experience they at least superficially deform quickly, even with small falls. Perhaps this is due to the cross hatch having little structural strength? Both my purples have divets in the lobes from 5-10 foot falls. Either way the cross hatch without adonization seems to be very "sticky."

My #1 C4 UL is pretty unimpressive overall. I'd call it very delicate compared the C4's instead of just a little less durable. It's rather severely kinked just from a tensioned lead rope pulling in it a little (3 or 4 pieces down) and the trigger action has now started to get pretty crappy. It's hardly seen any use at all compared to my C4's that are all in basically perfect shape.

It feels really light, though, so there's that I guess.

I've got a green metolius ultralight mastercam (size is kind of like a #1 c4) and i just love it, it walks much less than the #1 c4 (i think its because it's more flexible and has just 1 axle) it's also lighter (not a lot). The only thing i find "worse" is that it doesn't have a thumb loop, i just find that uncomfortable.
There's also some thing about the lobes not being anodized, but i don't really care (nor understand) about that. They also come in really small sizes, so they could also be nice (and cheaper?) instead of those c4 ultralights or totems. I've never tried totems.

The Totems use a harder alloy but they "bite" as well or better than Aliens because of the camming angle and how the outward force is applied from the back of lobes. The harder metal lasts longer but the comments of getting dimples in them may be because more outward force is applied on the totems than normal cams. Personally, I'd definitely go with Totems. I don't have any UL C4's, their light weight seems awesome though I question their durability along with everyone else.

Easiest way to get discounts on totems is keep an eye out for "20% one full-priced item" deals that come up every couple months on most websites.

One more tactic for getting discounts on totems is to use your AAC membership plus active junky. I used this to order the new sizes and it took $15 off a mountaingear order with free shipping and no tax (waiting on that black one to show up from back order). Active junky seems to vary in what percentage off goes at each site but at the time it was 10%, now it's down to 7% or something.

A while back I scammed a set via applying a coupon on top of a site-wide discount at backcountry and got 20% stacked on already 20%, which is the best deal I've yet seen. Sadly they shut it down between when I placed my order and suggested a friend try it. Worked out to $56 a cam. Kinda wish I'd sprung for the totem aliens at the time but I won't complain. I love my totems. They don't have the passive option of C4s but they inspire confidence in shallower placements I don't get with other cams, in part because of the bite and in part because cables instead of stem means they don't really walk. See the many threads for other feedback.

Mike Mellenthin wrote:Jeff, Given your stated objective, you may be interested in the following totem reviews from people you may recognize: andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/v… davidallfrey.blogspot.com/2… I have literally never seen a totem discount go by, but let me know if you find one!

Thanks Mike, I've read both of these, pretty sure I want a full rack of them. Accept the hand size piece of course.

One thing to note is that the BD in that size is passively rated ... While the totems arent

If you climb irregular rock youll often find placements where the cam slots in more than perfect cracks

Now of course big nuts, tricams and hexes work well in those placements ... But many folks dont carry those

In squamish even in moderates we have internally flaring pods and cracks where a bit of movement can open a cam right up, even when extended as you walk past it (especially diagonal placements) ...

Ive seen more than one climber saved by a passive cam ... And even if it does pull the cam will likely be intact vs a blown ouy umbrelled cam

Yes you should always place perfect gear everytime .... Yadda yadda yadda

;)

bearbreeder wrote:One thing to note is that the BD in that size is passively rated ... While the totems arent If you climb irregular rock youll often find placements where the cam slots in more than perfect cracks Now of course big nuts, tricams and hexes work well in those placements ... But many folks dont carry those In squamish even in moderates we have internally flaring pods and cracks where a bit of movement can open a cam right up, even when extended as you walk past it (especially diagonal placements) ... Ive seen more than one climber saved by a passive cam ... And even if it does pull the cam will likely be intact vs a blown ouy umbrelled cam Yes you should always place perfect gear everytime .... Yadda yadda yadda ;)

I have heard thus a number of times. Does it really matter if it is rated at a passive kN compared to a company that has machined cam stops that has never bothered to test a passive placement that is 5% or less of placements? I don't think you gain that much by going with bd on this point.

Pete Spri wrote: I have heard thus a number of times. Does it really matter if it is rated at a passive kN compared to a company that has machined cam stops that has never bothered to test a passive placement that is 5% or less of placements? I don't think you gain that much by going with bd on this point.

The totems, like the aliens have no cam stops ... Theyll blow right open

Perhaps it may not matter for expert MPers who never place a less than perfect piece everytime, even of a blind pumpy layback and whose cams dont dare pull even on slick limestone

For for less experienced folks (not MP experts) it can save their hide ... Not to mention buying a new cam

;)

bearbreeder wrote: The totems, like the aliens have no cam stops ... Theyll blow right open Perhaps it may not matter for expert MPers who never place a less than perfect piece everytime, even of a blind pumpy layback and whose cams dont dare pull even on slick limestone For for less experienced folks (not MP experts) it can save their hide ... Not to mention buying a new cam ;)

Wasnt talking about totems as you can see in my post that I talk about any generic cam with machine cam stops.

Imo, thinking that a cam in an irregular position placed passively will hold is.foolhardy. Place a nut in a crack like that. They are tapered and far more secure than a non-tapered, umbrella shaped cam, hoping it will stay in place.

Maybe you have some umbrella shaped pockets up in squamish, but I have never seen a passive cam placement that is secure or is confidence inspiring. So you can spare me your name calling of being an armchair climber and only going for perfect placements.

Show me a pic of this internally flaring placement that a cam is placed both actively and passively in. Now I know you are talking about a less than 1% placement... So why even bring it up as a point.

It's ok, you can keep fail replying! I would love to hear how you can get a cam to both actively and passively place at the same time!

Pete Spri wrote:Show me a pic of this internally flaring placement that a cam is placed both actively and passively in. Now I know you are talking about a less than 1% placement... So why even bring it up as a point. It's ok, you can keep fail replying! I would love to hear how you can get a cam to both actively and passively place at the same time!

On a popular beginner climb i gave a bit of rescrub last year

















Perhaps you should go climb something today and stop MP "experting"

;)

Bearbreeder-

I believe that there are internally flaring cracks that would not accept nuts and a passively rated cam could be a huge plus, but those cracks do not look to be a case. They look as if they would make bomber, regular-sized nut placements.