Top Roping Through Fixed Hardware

So far this season I have seen way too much of this going on. Not sure if it has something to do with the huge gym to crag explosion but I keep seeing people just TRing through fixed chains/rings. Just want to throw it out there and ask how other people go about handling this. Do you assume they don't know better and just inform them of the wear it does to the hardware? Has this led to confirmations at the crag? Personally I think it's in poor taste to do this when there are so many other options. Or am I going way over board and this is more common practice than I had always thought? I was taught to never TR through fixed hardware and only lower if you absolutely had to like on a traversing route. Is this not common form anymore?

So far this season I have seen way too much top roping going on. Not sure if it has something to do with the huge gym to crag explosion but I keep seeing people just TRing. Just want to throw it out there and ask how other people go about handling this. Do you assume they don't know better? Has this led to confrontations at the crag? Personally I think it's in poor taste to do this when there are so many other options. Or am I going way over board and this is more common practice than I had always thought?

Depends on the crag and users and how many TR's we're talking. It's a big No No at Smith Rocks, but at Owens River Gorge, many route setters use mussy hooks as a safer option to cleaning routes.

HarryN wrote:So far this season I have seen way too much top roping going on. Not sure if it has something to do with the huge gym to crag explosion but I keep seeing people just TRing. Just want to throw it out there and ask how other people go about handling this. Do you assume they don't know better? Has this led to confrontations at the crag? Personally I think it's in poor taste to do this when there are so many other options. Or am I going way over board and this is more common practice than I had always thought?

Well played

They shouldn't be TRing through the fixed gear. Not sure if they are newbies or lazy but someone should let them know the common practice.

I must admit that once upon a time, I too thought it was ok to TR through rap rings. I simply didn't know any better. I had never been to a climbing gym and to this day have still only been to one gym. I started climbing in Joshua Tree and really don't care to spend the time or money at the gym, I'd rather go bouldering here. All that to say when I started climbing, I really was just plain ignorant to a lot of common practice stuff about climbing. I was out climbing with a friend and we found a route we wanted to climb, but he said we couldn't TR it, but I was dumbfounded because I was staring at a beautiful set of rap rings and that was the day I learned the truth. SOME people, just need a polite correcting and if you could do that effectively then yeah I think you should.

BrokenChairs wrote:So far this season I have seen way too much of this going on. Not sure if it has something to do with the huge gym to crag explosion but I keep seeing people just TRing through fixed chains/rings. Just want to throw it out there and ask how other people go about handling this. Do you assume they don't know better and just inform them of the wear it does to the hardware? Has this led to confirmations at the crag? Personally I think it's in poor taste to do this when there are so many other options. Or am I going way over board and this is more common practice than I had always thought? I was taught to never TR through fixed hardware and only lower if you absolutely had to like on a traversing route. Is this not common form anymore?

Why don't you ask the people top roping through the anchor? Ask them in real life. You know, have a conversation about it. A few years ago I saw someone top roping through anchors and I asked the guy about it. Turns out he was the route developer. In his mind, it was fine for the last guy up to top rope through the anchors. Things like this can be really area dependent.

matt c. wrote: Why don't you ask the people top roping through the anchor? Ask them in real life. You know, have a conversation about it. A few years ago I saw someone top roping through anchors and I asked the guy about it. Turns out he was the route developer. In his mind, it was fine for the last guy up to top rope through the anchors. Things like this can be really area dependent.

I generally do but given the frequency lately I posted in hopes that I could get other's opinions on the subject and that other people might read and see that it is not a generally accepted practice in hopes to spread the word to a few more people than those I see at the crag. I have been finding a lot of routes in the BCC area with worn hardware so I assume it's happening even more so than I'm seeing when out a the crags. Good insight though I appreciate your input.

Well my god this week has been one for the books. All the old shit-storm topics floating up in the threads.

The answer is: IT IS CRAG SPECIFIC. Even more likely it is REGIONALLY DEPENDENT.

Yes we were all taught that way, just like we were all taught to tie a "safety knot" after the figure 8.

Areas that are frequented a lot have their anchors regualarly replaced and it doesnt matter if you use the fixed gear.

BrokenChairs wrote: I generally do but given the frequency lately I posted in hopes that I could get other's opinions on the subject and that other people might read and see that it is not a generally accepted practice in hopes to spread the word to a few more people than those I see at the crag. I have been finding a lot of routes in the BCC area with worn hardware so I assume it's happening even more so than I'm seeing when out a the crags. Good insight though I appreciate your input.

You are generally right, it's not a really an accepted practice.

You might want to invest in some quick links to stay ahead out the worn out hardware.

matt c. wrote: You might want to invest in some quick links to stay ahead out the worn out hardware.

I've already replaced slings, rings and chains on routes this year but it's seriously cutting into my beer budget.

TeeterTotter wrote:Depends on the crag and users and how many TR's we're talking. It's a big No No at Smith Rocks, but at Owens River Gorge, many route setters use mussy hooks as a safer option to cleaning routes.

Although even Mussy hooks aren't immune. According to the caption, the one on the left developed a nice sharp edge:

I do it on my own routes but do not expect anyone else to trash my anchors. I have even been scolded for tring through the top anchors. My answer. These are MY anchors I can do this;) anyone else does this I get to ask them to please don't do that.

Marc801 wrote:even Mussy hooks aren't immune.

I thought the point of Mussy Hooks was not that they are more resistant to wear, but that they're cheaper to replace -- because they're not climbing-specific.

I take it that when the route maintainers incur the expense of installing mussy hooks, they are just adopting a realiatic strategy for accepting that a substantial percentage of modern climbers are going to use whatever fixed hardware in ways that speeds its abrasion and wear.

. (But I really don't know anything about installing fixed hardware.
. . Never been in a situation where I had any choice about it.
. . Hope somebody corrects me).

Anyway even if the route maintainers seem to be accepting and adapting to unnecessary climber-caused wear of their hardware, it still helps keep the long-term costs down if I do most of my top-roping through my own temporarily-added equipment.
. (But nowadays me and almost every party in places I climb in USA and Europe has the last climber get lowered off through the permanent fixed hardware, rather than rappelling).

Myself I'm happy to contribute to local-crag-hardware funds to install and replace anchors and bolts, even if I know that some percentage of climbers are going to do more than their "fair share" of abrading it.

Ken

Nick Goldsmith wrote:I do it on my own routes but do not expect anyone else to trash my anchors. I have even been scolded for tring through the top anchors. My answer. These are MY anchors I can do this;) anyone else does this I get to ask them to please don't do that.

Of course anyone who sees you doing it and doesn't know who you are (I expect that'd be the majority of new climbers in the area) will "learn from your example". Is that acceptable to you?

Gunkiemike wrote: Of course anyone who sees you doing it and doesn't know who you are (I expect that'd be the majority of new climbers in the area) will "learn from your example". Is that acceptable to you?

If they don't know me, they shouldn't be following my example as they don't know whether I am setting a good example. I could be just another gumbie about to get myself killed, for all they know. I'd like to think that isn't true, but a person who doesn't know me would have no reason to trust me as a role model. At my home crag, I often TR through fixed hardware that I placed because the steel hardware is more resistant to wear than my aluminum biners and I'm the one who paid for the hardware in the first place.

On the other hand, if I know that the anchor has chains, I will often just take a single steel biner and run the rope through the chains and the steel biner with the biner taking the wear. That way I'm not wearing through fixed hardware or my skinny aluminum biners.

While the "Don't TR on fixed hardware" rule is generally beneficial to the entire community, it has its various exceptions, as do most things in climbing. Always use your best judgement and try to be open minded.

TeeterTotter wrote:Depends on the crag and users and how many TR's we're talking. It's a big No No at Smith Rocks.

Thats funny. The only time i've been to smith rocks I was waiting in line for a climb (why i'll not be back soon) They guys in front of my where TRing on there own gear (cord and a locker) it and a dude rapped down from above and gave them a scolding for NOT using the fixed gear!

He said "we replace that gear so you should top rope off it, that way its faster for the next group to get on the climb" and got mad they where clogging up the route. I was quite confused

I never TR on fixed gear don't care what the local rule is, better safe than sorry.

It's not something i do a lot. only when we have just finished and someone shows up that wants a lap before we pull. My answer is they are my anchors so no problem.

eli poss wrote: If they don't know me, they shouldn't be following my example as they don't know whether I am setting a good example.

That's not how it works though. And it's not just you who's doing it. Herd mentality: I see this often, therefore it must be ok. You're just another example to them reinforcing their already established philosophy, instead of being a counter example.

I'd also say it's worse if you're the route setter. It's easy for someone to know OF you, while not knowing you, and make the argument "eli poss set this route, and he uses the fixed gear, so it must be ok."

If you don't want people using your fixed gear, don't set an example for them to follow.

eli poss wrote: If they don't know me, they shouldn't be following my example as they don't know whether I am setting a good example. I could be just another gumbie about to get myself killed, for all they know. I'd like to think that isn't true, but a person who doesn't know me would have no reason to trust me as a role model.

I deliberately didn't use the term "role model" in my reply (to Nick, not you. But whatever.)

One needn't be perceived as a role model to set an example. As we see every frickin time this topic comes up, it comes down to "local ethics". And someone trying to get a handle on what the local ethic is at a new-to-them crag is going to look at what locals are doing. "Oh look, there's a guy running laps through the fixed anchor. We'll do that too...because it's what I see being done."

I live in a State (NC) that has maintained a traditionalist mentality, so top roping through the anchors is punishable by public tar and feathering at the local gym. However, yesterday I climbed at a crag (in NC) that had regular old 'biners on all of the anchors. I find this to be the best system. It is safer, quicker, and easily maintained. If a biner is getting worn out, replace it with one of yours. Biners are cheap, easily accessible, and we all have them. The existing paradigm where the route equipper is responsible for maintaining his or her own routes' hardware is archaic, as is rapping to get off of a route. Biners on the anchors, I say! Who is with me?