To use the belay loop or the tie-in loops?

So the guy who taught me to climb has always instructed me to run my locking biner/belay device through the tie-in loops of my harness as opposed to the belay loop. He said it's a stronger/safer connection. Well upon doing the research while shopping for my first new harness I noticed on REI's website under the section on 'how to buy a climbing harness' it states that the tie-in loop should only be used to tie into the rope while climbing and to never use this for the belay device because in doing so you 'greatly reduce the strength of the carabiner'. It also states that the belay loop is the only load tested piece on the harness. Should I discontinue using the tie-in loop for my locking biner/belay device? Any insight into this is greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Here is the article from REI for reference...
rei.com/learn/expert-advice…

This hasn't been a question for years. The guy who taught you was wrong.

Use your belay loop to belay and rappel. Tie in to the tie-in loops. I don't have anything to back this up (science?), but I suspect belaying off your tie-in loops either: (1) increases the risk of cross loading your biner (2) does not distribute load across your harness or (3) both.

Belay loops only became common around 20 years ago. Prior to that time a locking carabiner through the tie-in points was standard. There are still some harness's that don't have belay loops (e.g. Black Diamond Alpine Bod or Misty Mountain Summit). I've never heard of an accident from belay carabiner failure due to using the tie in points. In short I wouldn't worry about it.

Should you stop using the tie-in points? Probably, there is the possibility of triaxially loading the carabiner, potentially weakening it. It also puts your belay device and rope in a weird position (imo), where the rope is running side to side instead of up and down.

But it's something that you may also want to talk to your partner about--present the generally accepted method, talk about the safety, and see if he still wants to be belayed through the tie in points.

Or get a harness with double belay loops

The mechanics of using a 'biner through though the tie in loops vs. the belay loop can cause the 'biner to crossload, which is why its strength is reduced...

Oh god... Here we go.

^^^^^ +1

Ryan Kempf wrote:Oh god... Here we go.

This is a perfectly acceptable question for the Beginner Forum. Nothing was out of line.

As the name suggests, a "belay loop" is made for belaying. Curious how strong these things are? Here's some good info and a fun test by Black Diamind: blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

Will you die if you belay the way you were taught? Probably not. I'd switch if I were you.

A while back, I witnessed a climber take a fall onto a gear loop. Lucky for him, he was on top rope. Just don't do that.

D.Buffum wrote:Many, many years ago harnesses did not have belay loops, or belay loops were not particularly strong. Now, belay loops are crazy strong and meant for belaying and rappelling. There's no reason not to use it. On the other hand, I'm skeptical that running the biner through the tie-in loops really presents any practical risk. But what do I know?

Well...one of Petzl's gear manuals had a diagram of a biner through tie-in loops with a big red X through it. Petzl said it, so it must be true ;-)

Ryan Nevius wrote: This is a perfectly acceptable question for the Beginner Forum. Nothing was out of line. As the name suggests, a "belay loop" is made for belaying. Curious how strong these things are? Here's some good info and a fun test by Black Diamind: blackdiamondequipment.com/e… Will you die if you belay the way you were taught? Probably not. I'd switch if I were you.

My remark was not directed @ the OP. It was directed at the response and internet analyzing this will get.

Ben Beckerich wrote: I took a noob up an easy, but serious, alpine ice line a couple years ago. When he finally, shakily, barely topped out, and I think after even hanging a time or two, I look at his harness and was horrified to discover he had tied into his gear loop. In my defense, I really had no idea just HOW noob he was. I mean, he belayed ME up the pitch... so I guess I just assumed he knew how to tie into a harness.

You didn't check your partner? Who's the noob now.

Ben Beckerich wrote: I took a noob up an easy, but serious, alpine ice line a couple years ago. When he finally, shakily, barely topped out, and I think after even hanging a time or two, I look at his harness and was horrified to discover he had tied into his gear loop. In my defense, I really had no idea just HOW noob he was. I mean, he belayed ME up the pitch... so I guess I just assumed he knew how to tie into a harness.

Hmm. Climbers have an age old tradition of inspecting one another's harness, knot and belay setup before every pitch. Your "noob " excuse is a poor one and should have no bearing on whether you check each other or not. Sounds like you knew he was less experienced than you. Even more reason to set a good example.

Bah humbug.

Oops. Rging beat me to it by seconds.

Ben Beckerich wrote:Didn't make a "noob excuse," not sure WTF you're talking about..

Ummm...

Ben Beckerich wrote: ..... In my defense, I really had no idea just HOW noob he was

Umm. Errr

This myth is probably the largest in our sport. I cant count how many hundreds of climbers I have seen run their belay biner through the tie-in points.

As others have said, the correct option is to use the belay loop. Proponents of the myth state that threading the biner through the tie-in points is safer because it is redundant, unlike most belay loops. However, that reasoning is a logical fallacy because no one has ever died from an in-tact, inspection-passsable belay loop failure. The belay loop is almost always the strongest point of the harness, and it typically is the last thing to fail in a pull test.

So use the belay loop as a belay loop and you will be fine. Plus, little says "I was trained by gym noobs" more than propagating this myth by using the tie-in points to belay.

20 kN wrote:This myth is probably the largest in our sport. I cant count how many hundreds of climbers I have seen run their belay biner through the tie-in points. As others have said, the correct option is to use the belay loop. Proponents of the myth state that threading the biner through the tie-in points is safer because it is redundant, unlike most belay loops. However, that reasoning is a logical fallacy because no one has ever died from an in-tact, inspection-passsable belay loop failure. The belay loop is almost always the strongest point of the harness, and it typically is the last thing to fail in a pull test. Further, there are a few draw backs to threading the biner through the tie-in points. By using the tie-in points, you force the belay device closer to your body. I recall an incident where a belayer pinched his stomach in the belay tube as a result of it being so close, and as a result he nearly lost control of the belay. So use the belay loop as a belay loop and you will be fine. Plus, little says "I was trained by gym noobs" more than propagating this myth by using the tie-in points to belay.

http://mistymountain.com/recreational-gear/recreational-harnesses/summit-harness.html

blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

What's your point? That has already been brought up, and is very different. The OP isn't using an alpine harness that has no tie-in points.

Ryan Nevius wrote:What's your point? That has already been brought up, and is very different. The OP isn't using an alpine harness that has no tie-in points.

Lets see. The last poster said.

"By using the tie-in points you force the belay device closer to your body."

Well guess what. When you use an alpine harness you do the same thing. But other than his anecdotal story I don't hear much in the way of accidents caused by alpinists getting their stomachs pinched in the belay tube. I've used an alpine bod a lot and some of the comments here are just silly.

It's not that the OP's mentor was wrong, he's just 15-20 years behind and his reasoning is no longer valid with modern designs.

The alpine bod and the Misty Summit harness are probably the last harnesses on the market that don't have a belay loop. They're also specifically designed, as the Misty website says, for "alpine climbing, mountaineering and traversing glaciers". Yes, you can rock climb in them but they're horribly uncomfortable for that.

I personally think that the climbing world, including mountaineering has moved on from these designs. There really is no more reason to buy them but they are still made because there're still plenty of people that grew up on these harnesses and will never change. I'm glad those folks are happy. I'll take a belay loop every time.

When clipping into the tie-in points, I doubt that there is any real world issue with triaxle loading of carabiners. If there was, we'd probably see evidence of it in all the old accident reports. There is definitely an issue with cross-loading the gate and the screwgate opening up. I see these all the time when working with clients on glaciers. This is why most folks use two carabiners to clip into a rope.

I guess another way to look at it is:
Who is more likely to be correct. A few old hold outs that like clipping the tie-in points, or every single harness manufacturer that tells you, if there is a belay loop, use it.

I would have to wonder though. If you're mentor is that far out of date on this issue, what else are they doing/teaching?

One more thought. Check your partners harnesses! Especially if you've never climbed with someone before. If John Long and Lynn Hill can deck because they didn't tie their knot correctly, then we can all do it. It would be bad enough to see someone die out there and even worse if you knew it happened because you skipped such a basic thing in climbing.

Emil Briggs wrote:Belay loops only became common around 20 years ago. Prior to that time a locking carabiner through the tie-in points was standard. There are still some harness's that don't have belay loops (e.g. Black Diamond Alpine Bod or Misty Mountain Summit). I've never heard of an accident from belay carabiner failure due to using the tie in points. In short I wouldn't worry about it.

BUT the design, structure of the old harnesses like an alpine bod' are suited for using the carabiner for belaying. Modern harnesses have a rather tight fitting main tie in point, to reduce rope movement across the front of the harness. That and the leg loop tie in point are not the same structure as the old waist belt and giant leg loop to clip with a 'biner. The restricted movement on modern harness is the concern, as it can stress the carabiner or prevent smooth movement to get it in place. Also could affect the way the 'biner lines up with your rope through the belay device, causing more or less friction than expected during the belay.
Most harnesses now have a massive belay loop, that is tested for its purpose. Think of how many big falls you have taken on a quick draw that is similar in construction and a sewn loop , not nearly as thick or multiple stiched up as a belay loop. Sounds like good advice to use the gear as designed and drop the old school lesson that went along fine with older gear.