To Pass or Not To Pass (and where to do it) This Is The Question

the only description I can come up with is "How to f@ck up someone's experience on a crux pitch". A dickish move IMHO, cosidering that after 4 pitch there are many ways to pass a slower party.

A few weeks ago while climbing The Incredible Hulk's Red Dihedral we witnessed a quite interesting situation. There were two parties above us, the second one being faster. The leader of the second party started to climb not too long after the second of the first party left the anchor, so it was obvious they would meet before reaching the anchor; in this situation it meant climbing over a climber on a dihedral. It was still early morning, the weather was good, so there was no real need to rush, especially knowing that after this pitch (4th pitch, "the money pitch") there are many ways to pass a slower party. While I understand a need to bypass a slower party (I've been on both ends of that) is it really necessary to do that on the crux pitch, in some way ruining the experience and putting others in danger? All that to save 5-10 minutes? Any takes on that?

Unless it was someone free soloing (that would be merely "dickish") or the apocalypse was impending, that dude would get kicked in the teeth. Once that 'leader' passes over that guy cleaning, if he falls before putting in the next piece doing something stupid (like, you know, literally climbing over someone), he may end up legit killing the second in the first party.

Even if they put in another piece, you still might get your head kicked in by that asshole falling on you.

The ONLY time where it is appropriate to pass is where you have politely asked the slower party if they mind, then if they say yes (as they should), arrange to pass at a belay. It's STUPID to pass while on a pitch, particularly if difficult.

If they say NO suck it up and pick a less popular route next time, or get there first.

Slow parties should bear in mind that they will feel pressured if they remain ahead of a faster party, and with the added anxiety, accidents happen.

I once was following a motorcycle rider and decided to back off in some curves so he didn't feel pressured to go too fast. Didn't matter, he put the pressure on himself despite my good faith efforts, and dumped his bike into the curb. Turned out he was a newbie and hadn't yet learned how well he could handle his bike. Lesson learned.

While generally people should pass if they are moving faster (there is no downside to letting a faster party pass and because you woke up early, you don't own the rock.) and slower parties should let faster parties pass(and really have no say, if they are so slow that they aren't climbing yet, as is often the case), this seems pretty ridiculous. I'd never want to pass someone mid route. Just pass on the ledge, or link pitches or go around up high. Why would you want to do it this way? It not only ruins their experience, but yours as well.

Although we don't know the exact situation here. Could be that the upper party got a piece of gear stuck and was working on it. That happened to my partner and I once. She got a piece of gear stuck and wanted to keep working on it, the party below wanted to pass and everybody was fine with it. So they climbed through, not a big deal. A picture doesn't necessarily tell you the whole story. Could give a little benefit of the doubt here.

Also the weather can change on the Hulk super quick.

I've passed people often. Basic politeness and common sense applies. If you can go off route and do a variant this is often ideal.

At cathedral peak last year my partner and I managed to pass 11 people by doing the left hand variant past the Chimney. Somehow some people were managing to really struggle up that 5.6 chimney...

Passing somebody while they are on lead is just silly and dangerous but otherwise if you can pass without interfering with them or their gear then you can make it work. Just set up a belay below/above/to the side of theirs and quickly climb on through... (I would only pass though if I'm confident in myself and my partner to move quickly on through.)

Yeah, douche move in my opinion for the passing leader. Given that there appear to be plenty of other cracks to choose to bypass the crux, an impatient party could simply do those. This aint the Alps, buddy!

Jorge Gonzalez wrote:The ONLY time where it is appropriate to pass is where you have politely asked the slower party if they mind, then if they say yes (as they should), arrange to pass at a belay. It's STUPID to pass while on a pitch, particularly if difficult. If they say NO suck it up and pick a less popular route next time, or get there first.

While I agree that this situation seems stupid and unnecessary, you don't own the rock and get control over every other party because you woke up 10 minutes earlier. The Hulk can get cold and windy really quick. It can be dangerous to be stuck up there and you are putting other people's lives at risk by insisting they epic with you. I'll ask politely to pass every time, but if a really slow party says no, I'll say sorry and pass anyway.

I have mixed feelings about passing. I get faster should not be bothered to wait. I'm always happy to let people pass. I let a couple soloists by last week and they seemed surprised I was so easy going.

It drives me fuc'ing crazy when a party shows up 5 minutes after you do and starts the minute the follower is 10 feet up the first pitch. If come up on another party it's usually at the end of a long route. If another party is just started I look for plan B or climb a pitch or two then hit up plan A. Of course this backfires when a third party shows up.

One thing I do care about is GET OUTTA THE LEFT LANE!!!!!! Why do you insist on driving the speed limit in the fast lane? And why do you feel the need to get pissy when I start riding your ass after patiently waiting behind you for two miles? Get the F outta my way and let me pass!!

If someone climbed over me during a pitch I would start removing their gear as they climbed / cut their rope if it touched me. That is completely stupid to try to pass someone in that way.

I completely understand needing to pass because I have gotten behind some really slow groups before but normally it isn't an issue and we can pass them in a safe belay spot etc.

I had a friend (who was an idiot) growing up try to pass a car by going around them in a ditch... he flipped his car and the person who was driving normally on the road is lucky they didn't get taken out by his stupid move.

To clarify - the weather was good and improving. Time - sometime between 8 and 9am. It didn't look like the first party got stuck cleaning the gear, but as we were two pitches below I will go with Kevin's suggestion to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I was interested in the general opinion and it seems that even though there are different approaches to this subject the consensus is:
- to communicate with the other party, whether to ask or just to announce the intention to pass,
- to pass in the least dangerous place for oneself and others,
- to not be a d*ck about it.

One more thing, GET THE F... OUTTA THE LEFT LANE!!! ;)

This problem is easily solved. Stop at one of his pieces and wait for him to place a piece, then clove hitch his rope to that piece of gear and continue on your way. Problem solved...

Definitely a dick move...

ViperScale wrote:If someone climbed over me during a pitch I would start removing their gear as they climbed / cut their rope if it touched me.

Classic internet tough guy-ism. Absolutely absurd.

Noobs don't know what they're doing and will usually let experienced climbers pass.

Experienced climbers understand that sometimes people can climb faster than them and are typically tolerant of a well-executed pass.

The problem is with all the climbers in the middle who think they know what they're doing but really don't. Their fears or egos get in the way even more than other parties on the same route.

If you don't let a competent, faster party pass you without a good reason you are branding yourself inexperienced and probably a jerk. That said, there are compelling reasons not to let someone pass (for example loose rock, imminent weather or darkness, or complex or dangerous climbing).

I experience this all the time while guiding in Red Rocks - Epinephrine being perhaps the most obvious example. The "typical" climber on this route is intimidated and under stress. Passing sometimes goes smoothly and sometimes not so much. Once I had a guy freak out at me for passing him during the walk to the base (!) ...sorry if you're lost in the dark and I hike faster than you buddy! On several occasions I've had people show up just after me and they've asked flat out if they could pass without even seeing us climb... Though I find this presumptuous I always reply "Absolutely! If you can demonstrate competence and keep up with us I'll let you go by in a pitch or two." On a few rare occasions I've had a party offer to let me go first without even asking - this is a delight and a sure fire way to create good will!

This is just my opinion but I believe that neither slow parties nor fast parties are out there "trying" to ruin someone else's day. The things that happen are stress- and emotion-driven. And while it is always best to be as positive and polite as possible, if the other party is not acting rationally you ultimately have to treat them like any other objective hazard in climbing: That might mean bailing to a different route, taking a breather and letting someone pass, or perhaps even passing without expressed permission. Every situation is unique and to my knowledge there are no unbreakable rules to govern this issue.

If you're slow, you need to be passed. There really isn't any room for argument. You don't have the right to hold someone up just because you got there earlier. An alarm clock does not supersede competence, no matter what the internet says.

In reality, I've only ever encountered one instance where a slow party didn't let me pass. We caught them at every belay and chatted but the leader always took off the moment before my partner arrived at the belay. It was ignorant on their part. Had we passed, it wouldn't have changed their day. Since we didn't pass, it drastically changed ours.

Don't be a douche.

This also goes for driving.

Shelton Hatfield wrote: Classic internet tough guy-ism. Absolutely absurd.

I have let tons of people pass me (I am rarely in a rush). I have also had tons of other people let me pass before. There is rarely if ever a practical reason to need to pass in the middle of a pitch. The only time I have ever had someone need to pass me in the middle of a pitch was when there was a family issue back at home. I chilled on a small ledge after they asked and let them run past us to get back home to an emergency.

But if someone started trying to climb around without asking I would without a question start ripping their gear out of the wall and dropping or or something, if they are going to start endangering my life without talking to me I am going to make sure they know not to fall.

I am assuming from the picture that they did complicate and the group in front let them pass or something. I really don't think someone would just start climbing around someone on a route without asking for permission first. Hey maybe they were having trouble at the crux and needed a break so hung on gear to watch someone else show how to get past the crux.

Jorge Gonzalez wrote:The ONLY time where it is appropriate to pass is where you have politely asked the slower party if they mind, then if they say yes (as they should), arrange to pass at a belay. It's STUPID to pass while on a pitch, particularly if difficult. If they say NO suck it up and pick a less popular route next time, or get there first.

I agree with Jorge 100%, and disagree with several others. I will even take it further- whoever is there first DOES own that rock. If a party below is impatient and gets into trouble because they don't give the party in front enough of a head start, it's their own fault.

It seems there is a certain arrogance people have, where if they are faster or better climbers they should get priority. Screw that. We all have the right to enjoy the rock, safely and without being pressured. If it makes sense to pass a slower party, and you can do it safely and they don't mind, fine. But they have every right to say no, and if so you should accept it with a smile and wait your turn. In other words, be polite and civilized.

Sure there are plenty of times where it makes sense to let a party pass. But in general, if I'm leading, I don't want any additional complications or risk. And I probably don't want to wait for another climber to pass (and get far enough that there's no risk of them hitting me), or if they're leading, worry about interference from their rope or gear.

Bottom line, first come first serve. If you're fast and impatient climber, don't pick a route with people in front of you.

A related issue is when a leader arrives at a belay while the party in front is still there, and wants to share the anchor. The proper etiquette there, in my opinion, is similar- politely describe what you want to do, ask if it's okay, and be prepared to accept no for an answer.

I really don't want someone else's gear very close my anchor, especially if it's going to interact in any way, push or pull on any pieces or affect the distribution of the cordelette, etc.
I remember a time when someone arrive at the ledge while I was belaying my second, asked me politely if they could build an anchor around mine, and I told them no. Then they said they would build it next to mine instead, assured me it wouldn't interact in any way, so I said fine. Except it did interfere with my anchor quite a bit, compromising it's safety, and so I insisted they they remove the anchor. I had to tell them several times, but to his credit, he did, and was polite about it.

If you arrive at a belay while someone is still there, because you didn't wait long enough before starting the pitch, it's on you. You don't have the right to put the party in front of you in danger, or risk even the possibility of compromising their anchor, because you're impatient.

ViperScale wrote: I have let tons of people pass me (I am rarely in a rush). I have also had tons of other people let me pass before. There is rarely if ever a practical reason to need to pass in the middle of a pitch. The only time I have ever had someone need to pass me in the middle of a pitch was when there was a family issue back at home. I chilled on a small ledge after they asked and let them run past us to get back home to an emergency. But if someone started trying to climb around without asking I would without a question start ripping their gear out of the wall and dropping or or something, if they are going to start endangering my life without talking to me I am going to make sure they know not to fall. I am assuming from the picture that they did complicate and the group in front let them pass or something. I really don't think someone would just start climbing around someone on a route without asking for permission first. Hey maybe they were having trouble at the crux and needed a break so hung on gear to watch someone else show how to get past the crux.

Please take a picture when you cut that party's rope. We'll be waiting.

Dan Africk wrote: I agree with Jorge 100%, and disagree with several others. I will even take it further- whoever is there first DOES own that rock. If a party below is impatient and gets into trouble because they don't give the party in front enough of a head start, it's their own fault. It seems there is a certain arrogance people have, where if they are faster or better climbers they should get priority. Screw that. We all have the right to enjoy the rock, safely and without being pressured. If it makes sense to pass a slower party, and you can do it safely and they don't mind, fine. But they have every right to say no, and if so you should accept it with a smile and wait your turn. In other words, be polite and civilized. Sure there are plenty of times where it makes sense to let a party pass, and I have let people pass. But in general, if I'm leading, I don't want any additional complications or risk. And I probably don't wait for another climber to pass (and get far enough that there's no risk of them hitting me), or if they're leading, worry about interference from their rope or gear. Bottom line, first come first serve. If you're fast and impatient climber, don't pick a route with people in front of you.

I disagree with you. No on owns the rock. Unless you do. In which case it is on your property and people wanting to pass you shouldn't be a problem. And passing isn't about getting priority because you're faster or better climbers. Letting a faster party pass can be better for everyone. You talk about the right to climb without feeling pressured, as though it is an argument against passing. But not wanting to feel pressured is a big part of why you let a faster party pass. Also, you can't always tell that there are slow gumbys grade sixing it above you when you start a route. So sometimes you end up behind a slow party unexpectedly.

Dan Africk wrote: I agree with Jorge 100%, and disagree with several others. I will even take it further- whoever is there first DOES own that rock. If a party below is impatient and gets into trouble because they don't give the party in front enough of a head start, it's their own fault. It seems there is a certain arrogance people have, where if they are faster or better climbers they should get priority. Screw that. We all have the right to enjoy the rock, safely and without being pressured. If it makes sense to pass a slower party, and you can do it safely and they don't mind, fine. But they have every right to say no, and if so you should accept it with a smile and wait your turn. In other words, be polite and civilized. Sure there are plenty of times where it makes sense to let a party pass. But in general, if I'm leading, I don't want any additional complications or risk. And I probably don't want to wait for another climber to pass (and get far enough that there's no risk of them hitting me), or if they're leading, worry about interference from their rope or gear. Bottom line, first come first serve. If you're fast and impatient climber, don't pick a route with people in front of you.

Totally silly. Let take the Hulk, which was the example in the first post. It's a 3 hour hike in, probably a long drive there. Are people supposed to give up their climbing plans, have wasted their gas money just because you woke up earlier? Are people supposed to wait in a potentially dangerous situation just because someone woke up earlier? That's putting someone's life in danger, and feeling like you own the rock and are in control of everybody else because you woke up earlier? Nobody owns the rock. If I was climbing, another party came up behind me was ready to go on the next pitch before I was I would let them pass 100% of the time. They are ready and I am not. There is no good reason to not let them pass. It's better for everybody. I think there is a lot of ego involved on the people who don't want to be passed. Sorry that other people exist, but they do.

We all have to wait our turn sometimes. I get that it's frustrating waiting for a really slow party, I've been there plenty of times. I once waited about an hour in the sun on a belay ledge on beginner's delight, even though we gave the party in front a good head start and the pitch was wide open. You deal with it. Of course the Gunks are very different than a remote climb with a long approach and many pitches, but the principal still applies. You don't get to endanger others, or even make them uncomfortable and mess with their experience, because they're in front of you and you're impatient.

If you're in a dangerous situation because you're waiting for a party above, it's not their fault, and is probably yours. Even if you can't see a party on an upper pitch (or their gear on the ground), you should know it's a possibility.

Thinking you have the right to pass any party you deem as too slow is really the epitome of arrogance or acting like you 'own the rock'. No one likes waiting, but deal with it and wait your turn like a respectful adult.

Dan Africk wrote:We all have to wait our turn sometimes. I get that it's frustrating waiting for a really slow party, I've been there plenty of times. I once waited about an hour in the sun on a belay ledge on beginner's delight, even though we gave the party in front a good head start and the pitch was wide open. You deal with it. Of course the Gunks are very different than a remote climb with a long approach and many pitches, but the principal still applies. You don't get to endanger others, or even make them uncomfortable and mess with their experience, because they're in front of you and you're impatient. If you're in a dangerous situation because you're waiting for a party above, it's not their fault, and is probably yours. Even if you can't see a party on an upper pitch (or their gear on the ground), you should know it's a possibility. Thinking you have the right to pass any party you deem as too slow is really the epitome of arrogance or acting like you 'own the rock'. No one likes waiting, but deal with it and wait your turn like a respectful adult.

Or you can just pass them and everybody gets on with their day without a problem. You are asking people to cancel possibly whole trips because they didn't wake up early enough? Also expecting people to magically know how fast above parties will be or even if unseen people are on a route. Wait for hours on uncomfortable belays, when instead everybody could be climbing and enjoying themselves. Sounds like a control issue. You don't own the rock because you are an early riser and you aren't in control of what other people do. Totally silly.