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The Peaks question people aren't asking
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By Zak Farmer
Oct 20, 2011

As someone pointed out on Super Topo...I find it funny this uproar over the use of a power drill in a wilderness area when a quarter mile from the crag (in a wilderness area), Snow Bowl is blowing a pipeline through the forest to get ready to spray reclaimed water on the mountain on their brand new clear cut slope. Is it OK to clear cut the mountain (at an even higher and more sensitive elevation that the climbing area) if its done with a hand saw? Or does it only matter because the subject is climbing and if it is for skiing, then a completely other set of ethics apply?

How many people who are angry about power drills or bolts in general have skied or will ski on a wilderness clear cut? Is a power drill or a ski lift engine more obtrusive in the wilderness?

This is not saying that using power drills in the wilderness is ok...but it is quite the hypocrisy.


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By Mick S
From Sandia Park, NM
Oct 20, 2011

Yes it is, but that's life. We have a huge installation of communications towers, a gift shop, and an aerial Tram here in the Sandia wilderness of NM. Conveniently they have easements. It does not matter, if you get caught with a power drill in wilderness, you are commiting a felony (and will get prosecuted). Even worse, you will bring scrutiny upon all your fellow climbers, the FS will start asking about bolt counts, and will consider a permit system for new routes. We know that here, because that is what happened when a climber was caught with a power drill in the Sandias last year. So don't even think about power drilling in wilderness, just pull out the trusty hand drill and have fun, plus it builds character.


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By Zak Farmer
Oct 20, 2011

Wilderness Respect: A personal insult from yet another anonymous poster adding nothing to the conversation.

Mick: I agree, there are many things in our lives that we look aside from or consider it OK. And I also agree with you that power drilling in a wilderness area will bring scrutiny to climbing which is not something that we want. I guess my question was more related to why climbers find it so horrific the idea of bolts...yet some of the same climbers have no issue with the ethics of the development of a ski area.

So while I agree that "that's life", if the hypothetical outcome was that the forest service was OK with power drilling in a wilderness area, would that make it a non issue ethically for everyone that is ethically comfortable with a ski area in a wilderness area?


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By Mark S
Oct 20, 2011
team

Zak Farmer wrote:
As someone pointed out on Super Topo...I find it funny this uproar over the use of a power drill in a wilderness area when a quarter mile from the crag (in a wilderness area), Snow Bowl is blowing a pipeline through the forest to get ready to spray reclaimed water on the mountain on their brand new clear cut slope. Is it OK to clear cut the mountain (at an even higher and more sensitive elevation that the climbing area) if its done with a hand saw? Or does it only matter because the subject is climbing and if it is for skiing, then a completely other set of ethics apply? How many people who are angry about power drills or bolts in general have skied or will ski on a wilderness clear cut? Is a power drill or a ski lift engine more obtrusive in the wilderness? This is not saying that using power drills in the wilderness is ok...but it is quite the hypocrisy.



So these statements have NO base in fact. But lets not let that get in the way of a good argument.

1) Looks like there are 4 questions that really aren't about The Peaks.

2) Arizona Snow bowl has been around for about 80 years.

3) ASB is NOT in a wilderness area.

4) Wilderness Act was signed to law 1964.

5) Kachina Peaks Wilderness was signed in to law 1984.

6) The Peaks climbing area is only 4 years old.

7) Power drills in the wilderness area AGAINST climbing ethics.

8) Power bolting in wilderness is WRONG and has far more consequences than a drill getting a ticket. It effects the WHOLE CLIMBING COMMUNITY!!

1) John Bachar HATED rap bolting.


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By JacobD
From Flagstaff, AZ
Oct 20, 2011
Me on Half Dome Boulder, Middle Finger of Fury <br /> <br />Awesome problem!

This is outrageous. There is NO way that desecrating a sacred mountain with reclaimed water containing pharmaceuticals is okay. Let's think a little bit bigger than a legal system and laws that were made a long time ago to what actually impacts a wilderness (in both the hypothetical and technical sense of the word), and what has little impact. In my opinion Snow Bowl is a bunch of corporate assholes. A group of climbers up there have WAY less impact on the mountain, that is not even arguable. I agree with Zak and the folks over at Super Topo. For all those who are upset about the secret/not secret crag issue, stop being lazy. It isn't that hard to do a little research, and figure out where all of these "secret" crags are. Folks take themselves way to seriously over small issues such as a few bolts in the rock, when there are blatant civil rights violations happening 1/4 mile away, just to get a little bit of extra snow in AZ.


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By mcarizona
From Flag
Oct 20, 2011

"4) Wilderness Act was signed to law 1964."

Come on pioneers, were you top- roping that area at this time? It wasn't a secret either was it?

(sorry not much to contribute either ... not much of a snowbowl fan either)


Steve


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By manuel rangel
From Tempe, Arizona
Oct 20, 2011
Trying to redpoint The Ugly 11c; steeper than it looks and the rock is scary in spots but good enough.

Zak, I agree that it is hypocritical to have Snow Bowl run rampant over the mountain while a law written without our input nearly 50 years ago makes some people criminals should they power drill in wilderness.

Unfortunately, we have two camps in the climbing community: those who power drill and those who don't. The Peaks seems to have gotten the latter's panties in a bunch.

The truth is, if you have the money you can do anything you want on our public lands, wilderness or not. Take for instance, Oak Flat. When the Phx Bouldering Contest wanted to put a climbers trail into a boulder, all kinds of rangers got involved. Now that the mining concerns are drilling all over the place, they have bulldozed a new road through once pristine land. With the very same rangers handing it over to them on a silver, no, a copper plate.

Why o why didn't SuperClimber, Base9999, WildernessRespect, Mark S and the other anonymous assholes step up then? We are fighting a losing battle and some folks supposedly in our user group are busy shooting all of us in the foot instead.


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By Tristan B
From La Crescenta, CA
Oct 20, 2011
Hanging out on Royal Arches

I used bolt cutters to chop a lock on gate in Wyoming to go climb at a crag. There was a sign that said some bull sh*t about sesitve area, but I could hear chain saws and saw lumber trucks driving by on another road. So there is no way my car driving a mile up a road could be worse than that.


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Oct 20, 2011
Colonel Mustard

manuel rangel wrote:
Why o why didn't SuperClimber, Base9999, WildernessRespect, Mark S and the other anonymous assholes step up then? We are fighting a losing battle and some folks supposedly in our user group are busy shooting all of us in the foot instead.


Damn! Just when I think I'm out, Manny drags me back in!

Spot on, Manny! Big ass +1 from me.

Climbers are a family. We may not like what we see our family members doing sometimes, but you know what? You give them the benefit of the doubt. You discuss your disagreements like a human being, not like a creep hiding behind multiple monikers. Whoever is behind this glut of single issue troll accounts is decidedly not acting like family.


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By berl
From Oregon
Oct 20, 2011

contributions to this thread by small groups of vocal and obnoxious MP members on both sides of the issue are casting a bad light on all climbers.


way to go.


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By Alex "Tojo" Kray
From Tempe/Scottsdale, AZ
Oct 21, 2011

on a side/funny note:

WildernessRespect wrote:
You sould stick to climbing inside. This issue is way over you're ability.


really?! does he not know who you are? hahahaha

sorry for not contributing to the thread but i found that amusing!

climb on!


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Oct 21, 2011
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

WildernessRespect wrote:
You sould stick to climbing inside. This issue is way over you're ability.


You should go back to the school you dropped out of and beg them to take you back. If you're going to be a prick and insult someone with little basis or explanation, at least spell it correctly. It will give more credence to your mockery. Your grasp on English is embarrassing; unless of course you're six.


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By mcarizona
From Flag
Oct 21, 2011

let's see it again! <br />....hill (right?)
let's see it again!
....hill (right?)


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By Mark S
Oct 21, 2011
team

Alex "Tojo" Kray wrote:
on a side/funny note: really?! does he not know who you are? hahahaha sorry for not contributing to the thread but i found that amusing! climb on!



I think I know who this Zak Farmer is. He is that awesome climber in the mags. No wait, he is that awesome Lawyer for the Access Fund. Wrong again?!?! How about the MD that works magic during heart surgery. Nope. An entrepreneur? A philanthropist? Nope. A degree holder?

He is that punk kid that lives/works at Vertical Relief rock gym in Flagstaff. The one with the huge attitude that can barely stand to talk to a customer. Yep, that's right. How could you ever get him mixed up with every gym in the land that has a punk ass kid?


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By Keith Beckley
Oct 21, 2011

Zak brought up a very good point. This place is in no mans land for the most part. Youd have to really go out of your way to even see this place. There isnt any room for more quality routes anyways it appears. Enjoy the place and go rock climb. Move on people. Ever been to Europe? they bolt 4th class slabs and shit. Id hate to see this place get shut down however.

What do all you think of all the gorgeous trees that are cut down daily to put in McDonalds and Walmarts....makes my absolutely sick..

A few bolts in a remote spot really is nothing compared to damage our country does on a daily basis. We are becoming robots.....:(


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By Kid Icarus
Oct 21, 2011
Self Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man

Mark S wrote:
I think I know who this Zak Farmer is. He is that awesome climber in the mags. No wait, he is that awesome Lawyer for the Access Fund. Wrong again?!?! How about the MD that works magic during heart surgery. Nope. An entrepreneur? A philanthropist? Nope. A degree holder? He is that punk kid that lives/works at Vertical Relief rock gym in Flagstaff. The one with the huge attitude that can barely stand to talk to a customer. Yep, that's right. How could you ever get him mixed up with every gym in the land that has a punk ass kid?


Stalkers be stalkin'.


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By Zak Farmer
Oct 21, 2011

Mark S wrote:
I think I know who this Zak Farmer is. He is that awesome climber in the mags. No wait, he is that awesome Lawyer for the Access Fund. Wrong again?!?! How about the MD that works magic during heart surgery. Nope. An entrepreneur? A philanthropist? Nope. A degree holder? He is that punk kid that lives/works at Vertical Relief rock gym in Flagstaff. The one with the huge attitude that can barely stand to talk to a customer. Yep, that's right. How could you ever get him mixed up with every gym in the land that has a punk ass kid?



E-Thug
E-Thug


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By Ben Beard
From Superior, AZ
Oct 22, 2011
roo, my only son, the stare that takes down a herd of 'stock

Keith Beckley wrote:
Zak brought up a very good point. This place is in no mans land for the most part. Youd have to really go out of your way to even see this place. There isnt any room for more quality routes anyways it appears. Enjoy the place and go rock climb. Move on people. Ever been to Europe? they bolt 4 class slabs and shit. Id hate to see this place get shut down however. What do all you think of all the gorgeous trees that are cut down daily to put in McDonalds and Walmarts....makes my absolutely sick.. A few bolts in a remote spot really is nothing compared to damage our country does on a daily basis. We are becoming robots.....:(


A few caveats. I have never climbed at the Peaks. My comments here are not in support of anyone else other than my own personal thoughts. Stop reading and don't reply if this is a problem for you.

Zak, I believe the comparison between Snowbowl and the Peak is no where near apples to apples (this is not support for Snowbowl). Snowbowl probably went through a formal process for their current operations. Their proposals with the Forest Service might have even gone through some public comment process. Whether or not you agree with the Snowbowl operations, this is not comparable to the Peaks situation (I am not implying anything illegal occurred at the Peaks). It is not between climbing and skiing, it may be between tax revenues and due process (?). I know you are trying to look at the bigger picture around wilderness ethics. I assume Snowbowl went through a public comment and we are talking about putting any snippets of info on MP for public use!

Keith, you say this (the Peaks) is "no man's land"; sounds like a good definition for wilderness by many different user groups. This is not an excuse for illegal acts (I know permanent hardware is not illegal in wilderness, it just depends upon the methods, I know). "All the gorgeous trees" that McDonalds and Walmart cut down.
Walmart wood
McDonalds
Robots might not be able to fact check, but human climbers can go beyond simple "parroting".


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By Zak Farmer
Oct 22, 2011

Ben, you are correct. Snow Bowl is a legal entity that has approval from the necessary agencies. I think you pointed out the essence of the argument when you talk about about larger wilderness ethics.

Is it because snow bowl has government approval that makes what they do OK? If its just a matter of what is legal and what isn't, then if power drilling in the wilderness became legal...does that make it right and ethical all of a sudden?


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By DesertRat
Oct 22, 2011

The issue of the Snowbowl bulldozing aspen groves and spraying hormone and steroid laced snow all over a mountain that is also a sacred land for more than one tribe of Native Americans, is what we should be discussing. All this just for the opulent Phoenicians to drive their gas guzzling SUV's up to Flagstaff for the day so they can play in what used to be our excrement.

The ethics of bolting have been long ago talked to death, let a sleeping dog lie, seriously.

The reason that the power drill laws were enacted in the first place was to keep bolts from being placed in places they shouldn't be, or don't need to be.

If an area needs bolts to be safe, who cares how they get there, especially when the "wilderness" experience has already been ruined by the aforementioned atrocity?


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By DesertRat
Oct 22, 2011

Mark S wrote:
I think I know who this Zak Farmer is. He is that awesome climber in the mags. No wait, he is that awesome Lawyer for the Access Fund. Wrong again?!?! How about the MD that works magic during heart surgery. Nope. An entrepreneur? A philanthropist? Nope. A degree holder? He is that punk kid that lives/works at Vertical Relief rock gym in Flagstaff. The one with the huge attitude that can barely stand to talk to a customer. Yep, that's right. How could you ever get him mixed up with every gym in the land that has a punk ass kid?


I'm not sure how this has anything at all to do with the original topic, even if it weren't a bunch of crap. Did Zak piss you off when you were at the gym because he could campus the problem you'd been projecting or something. If you have something to contribute then do, but slander should be saved for high school cliques.


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By Ben Beard
From Superior, AZ
Oct 22, 2011
roo, my only son, the stare that takes down a herd of 'stock

DesertRat wrote:
The issue of the Snowbowl bulldozing aspen groves and spraying hormone and steroid laced snow all over a mountain that is also a sacred land for more than one tribe of Native Americans, is what we should be discussing. All this just for the opulent Phoenicians to drive their gas guzzling SUV's up to Flagstaff for the day so they can play in what used to be our excrement. The ethics of bolting have been long ago talked to death, let a sleeping dog lie, seriously. The reason that the power drill laws were enacted in the first place was to keep bolts from being placed in places they shouldn't be, or don't need to be. If an area needs bolts to be safe, who cares how they get there, especially when the "wilderness" experience has already been ruined by the aforementioned atrocity?


You're right, this thread was steered towards the topic of Snowbowl, but it did mention the Peaks subject so I responded.
But to think that bolting has been talked to death and is no longer an issue is false. Who care's about bolting in wilderness areas? I do! I live and climb in wilderness areas, two of which are 7 miles from my home. Any possible problems with climbing and wilderness affects many AZ climbers. Remember, I am not saying that bolting and wilderness cannot go together. I am just saying that sometimes these things should be discussed and not put underneath the rug or justified because Snowbowl is next door.


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By JMo
From Flagstaff, AZ
Oct 22, 2011
mayflower

13-2921. Harassment; classification; definition

A. A person commits harassment if, with intent to harass or with knowledge that the person is harassing another person, the person:

1. Anonymously or otherwise contacts, communicates or causes a communication with another person by verbal, electronic, mechanical, telegraphic, telephonic or written means in a manner that harasses.
....
3. Repeatedly commits an act or acts that harass another person.
....
C. Harassment under subsection A is a class 1 misdemeanor. Harassment under subsection B is a class 5 felony.
...
E. For the purposes of this section, "harassment" means conduct that is directed at a specific person and that would cause a reasonable person to be seriously alarmed, annoyed or harassed and the conduct in fact seriously alarms, annoys or harasses the person.


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By JMo
From Flagstaff, AZ
Oct 22, 2011
mayflower

Mark s thought you should do some reading.... Enjoy


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By manuel rangel
From Tempe, Arizona
Oct 23, 2011
Trying to redpoint The Ugly 11c; steeper than it looks and the rock is scary in spots but good enough.

Bolting with power drills in wilderness is illegal because anything motorized is prohibited.

Power drills are not addressed per se in the 1964 wilderness act. Only the use of anything motorized, including bicycles.

That is the fuel for the bolting in wilderness fire. If the Act were amended and motorized drills were made legal (I'm not saying they should be) then this whole argument would go away.


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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Oct 23, 2011
Stabby

Drills had ZERO impact on the impetus for the ban as they were about 20 years out at the time. Focusing on drills violating the mechanized ban is the height of anal-retentivity. But then AR and Tradiban goes hand in hand


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