Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
The Gunks are way worthy!
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 9 of 12.  <<First   <Prev   7  8  9  10  11   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Dec 1, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on
Kevin Heckeler, champion for tort reform!

But really this society sucks, people sue when they spill hot coffee, trespassers win lawsuits against private landowners when they get hurt on their property...etc.

FLAG
By David Stowe
Dec 1, 2012
Will S wrote:
I ain't wading into the fee issues other than to say it is ridiculously high and one reason I much prefer other areas in the east. Back to the OT, the climbing is pretty good, but there are many, many areas in the east I'd rate above the Gunks. Maybe for the 5.n00b contingent it can't be beat, but for people who can actually pull a little bit, it's good but not great. You want roofs? Great rock quality? Anything in the cumberland plateau/cumberland mtn belt. Chattanooga blows New Paltz away from a climbing perspective. Same for WV.

Have you only climbed at the Trapps? There is a whole lot more to the climbing at the Gunks than just the most popular areas. The is also a surprisingly wide variety in the aspect, feel and steepness of the rock at the many assorted crags. There are many great climbing areas throughout the country, but very few can even begin to rival what the gunks has to offer. I've been climbing there for almost 20 years and I still continue to find areas that I have not climbed at that offer amazing routes, rock quality and settings. Not sure why people always feel the need to bash certain areas to make other places sound great. Just being out climbing anywhere is a great day .

FLAG
By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Dec 1, 2012
You stay away from mah pig!
Ben Brotelho wrote:
Kevin Heckeler, champion for tort reform! But really this society sucks, people sue when they spill hot coffee, trespassers win lawsuits against private landowners when they get hurt on their property...etc.


Actually, the famous McDonald's Coffee lawsuit was pretty legit. There's plenty of info online about it, but cracked.com is the most entertaining:

cracked.com/article_19150_6-fa...

FLAG
By Happiegrrrl
From Gunks
Dec 1, 2012
Kevin Heckeler wrote:
I'm sure if they weren't rolling in it one of the many climbing lawyers would handle those cases pro-bono.


How is it that you can be so "sure" of such a thing, Kevin? Let me ask, over the years, how many medium-sized and larger non-profit groups have you worked closely in, in a manner that you would have at least a glimpse of an insider's view as to how operations work?

FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Dec 1, 2012
Rumney
Happiegrrrl wrote:
How is it that you can be so "sure" of such a thing, Kevin? Let me ask, over the years, how many medium-sized and larger non-profit groups have you worked closely in, in a manner that you would have at least a glimpse of an insider's view as to how operations work?


How do you know I'm wrong? I thought you said you had no intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the Preserve and you weren't here as their spokesman?

[I've been on the board/cofounder of one 501c (as was Val), no longer a functioning corporation... and we did happen to receive much assistance for free from a very generous small firm who were sympathetic to our cause, but that wasn't even the reason I posted that]

FLAG
By Happiegrrrl
From Gunks
Dec 2, 2012
I ask how you can be so sure of that statement for two reasons, and I was not inferring I had knowledge of MP inner workings. I have been involved with 4 n-f-p's, each responsible for millions of dollars, one of which was an international organization, and one, though locally based, that ran a program which was a model used in developing nations((not considering MP in this number as the only insight I have into their daily activity is talking with people when I am out and about, pretty much friendly banter).

The first reason I suggest it is a rather bold statement to make is that even though there may be a number of climbers at the Gunks who practice law, the majority of them are very likely not in the niche which would be applicable. A real estate attorney, someone who specializes in intellectual property rights or divorce/custody issues would not be, for instance, when it comes to climbing issues.

That reduces the number of potential offering attornies considerably. I am guessing(and could be wrong) that someone who is working with a firm doesn't necessarily get to decide which entities they will be providing free services to, which would reduce the number further. Again, I may be completely off base here. But if so, then it would really need to be a partner in a firm who makes the decision to offer this service, which further reduces the available options.

On the preserve side, I would guess there have been offers of pro bono legal work over the years, but have to wonder if it would be the responsible way to act, considering all that is potentially at stake, to not retain the very best legal services at their disposal. You brought up this point after someone posted " the heightened liability of having climbers on their land," after all. The subject wasn't referring to someone getting their finger nicked as they put trash in the bin.

And your comment about "if they weren't loaded" came directly in response to a post by another about a bicyclist who had perished, which would probably be a wrongful death suit - extremely serious. To even use the term "frivolous lawsuit" (as you did infer, saying there should be a penalty, directly in response to that post) is such a case is - bizarre. Perhaps you didn't realize that is how your statement came off, that you were thinking more of the copperhead bite. But if we go aback to the "climbing lawyers" and "heightened liability of having climbers on lands," the original statement that brought you to make your claim - these are not in any way shape or form, "frivolous lawsuits."

The preserve is dedicated, and legally responsible, to protect the lands and assets which members like yourself and many, many others, have entrusted them to. I think of some of the climbing accidents I know of over the years and can't for the life of me imagine it would be appropriate, or remotely feasible, to be using pro bono legal services at this level.

Maybe I am completely off base in my thinking. I know very few lawyers, and don't tend to talk shop with those I have met. Perhaps there are some in the field who will comment on this topic.

But also, perhaps a better option would be to let this thread revert back to "Gunks are Way Worthy!" posts, and create a thread specifically addressing the points you repeatedly have been bringing up whenever someone does post about the place.


Good old High E!
Good old High E!




And the MP likes dogs too! WAY worthy!
And the MP likes dogs too! WAY worthy!

FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Dec 2, 2012
Rumney
I clearly wasn't referring to any particular lawsuit(s) in my response.

Agree about wanting the best representation, that's a good way of looking at it. Considering the reach the Preserve has and number of members, it's not a stretch to think a few would be lawyers capable of litigating suits that merely require a hearing to be thrown out. (The "easy" cases) Not every legal action requires the likes of a Matlock. As you say, specialists in the field are needed when it calls for it. But sometimes anyone with a brain can show up in court and get a case thrown out. I've even done that defending myself.

Your replies border on badgering, but that's okay. You drink coffee. Feel free to start whatever threads you want, you are after all replying to mine and me to yours.

FLAG
By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Dec 2, 2012
tanuki
Kevin Heckeler wrote:
I clearly wasn't referring to any particular lawsuit(s) in my response. Agree about wanting the best representation, that's a good way of looking at it. Considering the reach the Preserve has an number of members, it's not a stretch to think a few would be lawyers capable of litigating suits that merely required a hearing to be thrown out. (The "easy" cases) Not every legal action requires the likes of a Matlock. Your replies border on badgering, but that's okay. You drink coffee. Feel free to start whatever threads you want, you are after all replying to mine and me to yours.


What a bunch of BULLSHIT!

Seriously, Kevin, you need to STFU unless you have something of value to add. You have a problem with the Preserve, its management and the way the Gunk is run. We all get it. You don't have any suggestions on how the Preserve can do a better job and you do nothing to add value for the climbing community. You keep on tossing out barbs and unfounded accusations of mismanagement, demand that others prove that you are wrong, and then when they do you just toss out another steamer. IMHO, that is weak. You are just making a bunch of noise and it is not pleasant. You add no value. I am sure that I am not alone in this opinion.

Again, please just STFU.

FLAG
 
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Dec 2, 2012
Rumney
NC Rock Climber wrote:
What a bunch of BULLSHIT! Seriously, Kevin, you need to STFU unless you have something of value to add. You have a problem with the Preserve, its management and the way the Gunk is run. We all get it. You don't have any suggestions on how the Preserve can do a better job and you do nothing to add value for the climbing community. You keep on tossing out barbs and unfounded accusations of mismanagement, demand that others prove that you are wrong, and then when they do you just toss out another steamer. IMHO, that is weak. You are just making a bunch of noise and it is not pleasant. You add no value. I am sure that I am not alone in this opinion. Again, please just STFU.


Really? Major snark. I'm sure you're not alone, there's an entire community of pro preserve folks that wanted me (and anyone else not in line with them) to shut up before we even open our mouths. They've just about succeeded to scare them off. I've been keeping my tone civilized toward other members, no? I certainly haven't told anyone to shut the fuck up. I've even conceeded points like the post you quoted above. Her last reply clearly went out of its way to make my post seem insensitive, when it clearly wasn't aimed at any one or any thing (someone with good comprehension skills would see the "loaded" comment was directed at the cost of hiring attorneys, the point of my post being about pro-bono services). Not fantasy to equate her behavior to badgering. That behavior is indicative of someone hell bent on making me out to look bad. How else am I supposed to reply/address that? Tell her to STFU like you so tastefully have done? Common. And you mean to say that her replies prove/disprove anything? Her post was simply a rebuttal using opinion and speculation. She doesn't have the first hand knowledge any more than I. It could have been a friendly exchange without the barb about me suggesting someone dying was "frivolous". My interpretation of her intent seems pretty darn clear.

This isn't just about the posts in this thread unfortunately, and really the reactions to my posts are likely a bit of pent up frustration spilling over from other threads on other forums that don't even involve me regarding the Preserve. The issues being beaten to death here really have very little to do anymore with the Preserve, it's transcended into being personal. And yes, it's not serving the topic any good. But looking back I don't see where I'm the one attacking other members.

[and how exactly does YOUR post contribute, in any way, to anything?]

FLAG
By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Dec 2, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on
So...we can all agree the Gunks rock!

FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Dec 2, 2012
Rumney
"Actually, the famous McDonald's Coffee lawsuit was pretty legit. There's plenty of info online about it, but cracked.com is the most entertaining: cracked.com/article_19150_6-fa...



Thanks for posting this, although I don't rattle off those cases as examples I also didn't know much about them either.

FLAG
By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Dec 2, 2012
tanuki
Kevin Heckeler wrote:
[and how exactly does YOUR post contribute, in any way, to anything?]


If my post keeps you from making any more repetitive and insubstantial BS posts, it will be a great contribution.

FLAG
By Happiegrrrl
From Gunks
Dec 2, 2012
Kevin, just for the record, when I was entering college, the required testing showed my writing and reading comprehension skills at the 98th, 96th and 93rd percentiles in the categories tested. In grade school(6th grade) because my lack of attentiveness to the surroundings often upset the teachers, a specialist was brought in to see "what was wrong with me." It turned out that I was the smartest kid in the entire school at the time. It is not me who has trouble with reading comprehension.

The question I posed was an inquiry about your experience with non-profits of medium and larger sizes because it appears you haven't any, since you seem oblivious to what is involved in daily operations, long-term planning and the like.

It had nothing - whatsoever - to do with the cost of hiring legal services, and was about the fiduciary responsibility of an organization such as the preserve to those who support it, and to protect its assets appropriately.

It's not me making you look bad Kevin, and that is not my intent. You continue to make statements which I feel are flawed in logic, and I am questioning/debating them. You see that as intimidation, yet when YOU are making statements, they are "conversation."

Your consistent response to this is to say I am attempting to intimidate you to be silent. If that was my intent - I could have been letting the content of your posts hang in thin air instead of trying to debate the arguments.

You may not like it when someone tells you you don't know what you're talking about, that you are adding no value and to STFU. But when I told you that I took offense to the way you mocked me with "hippygrrl," instead of acknowledging my feelings, you defended your position and even went on to say "we're not really friends anyway, after all."

What an insult, when I have offered you hospitality. When I watched your dog for an entire day so you could go climbing and not have to manage with the dog.

If you would like to continue the debate, let's start another thread that is on-topic and direct others to it instead of ruining this thread further.

FLAG
By Simon Thompson
From New Paltz, NY
Dec 2, 2012
Happiegrrrl wrote:
Kevin, just for the record, when I was entering college, the required testing showed my writing and reading comprehension skills at the 98th, 96th and 93rd percentiles in the categories tested. In grade school(6th grade) because my lack of attentiveness to the surroundings often upset the teachers, a specialist was brought in to see "what was wrong with me." It turned out that I was the smartest kid in the entire school at the time. It is not me who has trouble with reading comprehension. The question I posed was an inquiry about your experience with non-profits of medium and larger sizes because it appears you haven't any, since you seem oblivious to what is involved in daily operations, long-term planning and the like. It had nothing - whatsoever - to do with the cost of hiring legal services, and was about the fiduciary responsibility of an organization such as the preserve to those who support it, and to protect its assets appropriately. It's not me making you look bad Kevin, and that is not my intent. You continue to make statements which I feel are flawed in logic, and I am questioning/debating them. You see that as intimidation, yet when YOU are making statements, they are "conversation." Your consistent response to this is to say I am attempting to intimidate you to be silent. If that was my intent - I could have been letting the content of your posts hang in thin air instead of trying to debate the arguments. You may not like it when someone tells you you don't know what you're talking about, that you are adding no value and to STFU. But when I told you that I took offense to the way you mocked me with "hippygrrl," instead of acknowledging my feelings, you defended your position and even went on to say "we're not really friends anyway, after all." What an insult, when I have offered you hospitality. When I watched your dog for an entire day so you could go climbing and not have to manage with the dog. If you would like to continue the debate, let's start another thread that is on-topic and direct others to it instead of ruining this thread further.


Game, Set, Match.

FLAG
By Steven Groetken
From Durango, CO
Dec 2, 2012
On top of Hitchcock Pinnacle.
$17? Man, I'm lucky living next to Mt. Lemmon (almost 2000 routes and fuh fuh free, well NF taxes) oh, and somebody, anybody STFU!

FLAG
By Miike
From MA/CT border
Dec 2, 2012
my foot
Steven Groetken wrote:
$17? Man, I'm lucky living next to Mt. Lemmon (almost 2000 routes and fuh fuh free, well NF taxes) oh, and somebody, anybody STFU!



and people wonder why NYers have such a reputation for being NASTY

or do they wonder?

FLAG
 
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Dec 2, 2012
Rumney
Simon Thompson wrote:
Game, Set, Match.


Really? [instigator! ;) ] I kinda feel sorry for Terrie after reading that. Holding on to a ravenous insult that wasn't even an insult, so many weeks later. What a crushing personal blow for a female hippy to take, be be called in jest a hippy female! You'd think I called her a conservative male. rotflmao Sorry if I couldn't remember if it was one R or three in grrrl.

What's your IQ and SAT scores while we're at it. Any honors you haven't mentioned? Oh, and don't forget to again share your handbag designing salary because everyone knows how much you earn is an indicator of your worth to society. The mohonk chair gets $130,000 so we dare not question them unless we earn $131,000+. Right? Is that not why these things are said, to keep the poor slob in their place and beaten into humility (subordination)?

"Matt Davis wrote:
salary is around $135,000 plus quite generous benefits."

"Happiegrrrl wrote:
For what it's worth, if I were still working as a handbag designer in NYC, I would be making more than that by quite a significant amount..."


Is Louie that big a burden I owe you something or should not engage/question you EVER because you watched him for a day? Does it make us life buds? I missed that contract. Really? [fwiw, it's Val's dog too... and bringing that up for any reason under any context a year later is very petty... like mentally imbalanced petty]

You're still skirting around the fact you misread my post and now you're trying to divert attention away from it claiming you couldn't have been wrong because yur smart. Then you cry about me wasting time while wasting time arguing about the time being wasted arguing about wasted time.

So after all those words you haven't actually added ANYTHING. And you continue wasting MY time having to come back here and respond. I'm certainly not going to be made out to be some villian. Sorry folks for whatever Terrie's getting off her chest here as obviously this runs deeper than me, the preserve, or babysitting someone's dog.

TRmasta, upstate New Yorkers (my crew) tend to be real laid back and friendly. Unfortunately some of the City elements migrate north of Newburg. ;) haha

Man, the entire last couple of exchanges are a huge fucking waste of time.

FLAG
By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Dec 2, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on
Dood...give it up already.

FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Dec 2, 2012
Rumney
Ben Brotelho wrote:
Dood...give it up already.


If it was you and someone was taking their aim publicly, would you defend yourself? Unfortunately I chose to have my name on my account, not hidden behind some anonymous avatar.

FLAG
By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Dec 2, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on
If it was me, I'd probably not say things that would get people all butthurt enough to attack me on the internet...

People who try this hard to convince other people that they're credible and sensible usually are trying to convince themselves.

Say something nice about the Gunks, like the fact that it makes you strong as hell and good at roof-climbing, and move on. That will make people like you! That is what you're trying to do, right?

FLAG
By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Dec 2, 2012
tanuki
You continue to clog this thread with your BS. It was already established that the $130K salary was average for someone in that position. It was also established that you don't know what you are talking about and keep trying, unsuccessfully, to find a "smoking gun" that will show The Preserve to be a "bad" organization.

Look, Kevin, you got nothing. No data, no facts, no expertise or experience that lends credibility to your BS opinions. You continue to shift between passive-agressinve ad hominem attacks against Terrie and implying that there is something wrong with The Preserve, while not providing a shred of evidence or answering a single question as to why your unsubstantiated opinion is more meaningful that a duck-fart.

In the end, I stand by my earlier post. You just need to STFU. Sadly, I doubt that you will.

FLAG
By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 2, 2012
Colonel Mustard
What a bunch of tulips!

FLAG
By Happiegrrrl
From Gunks
Dec 2, 2012
The GOOD News is that right now my van is funked up and I could care less about this guy who is a partner to someone I do consider a friend.


I suggested we make another Thread if this crap was not over, and though I am not going to do it myself right now, I will not further engage on this thread in any manner except to praise the Gunks on their Way-Worthiness(since I agree with the sentiment).


Sometimes people are very considerate at the Gunks...
Sometimes people are very considerate at the Gunks!




Some of the trail crew who work on Sundays, severa...
Some of the trail crew who work on Sundays, several Vulgarians here - still working hard. So NOW you know that some of those naughty boy youngsters who gave so much as they were putting up new routes and developing the lore of the Shawangunks climbing history have grow into people who still stay close to it all and continue to find ways to give back!

FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Dec 3, 2012
Rumney
Ben Brotelho wrote:
That will make people like you! That is what you're trying to do, right?


I could care less. [No, really - just ask anyone who knows me - I praise people when they're worthy, and scoff when it's applicable. I don't constantly thrive to exist for other's approval like some nor do I expect to be coddled when I'm in the wrong. It's life, and part of being an adult (conflict). People who avoid it also happen to be the worse at handling it.]

It was a discussion that started to get heated and could have ended long ago but the heat keeps getting applied.

As for the positive things the Gunks offer...

+ Great climbing for new trad leaders (already mentioned)
+ Excellent roof and face climbing routes (already mentioned)
+ Good access (trails, roads)
+ Generally friendly people (most of them have never even been on the forums, something to consider when putting perspective on opinions shared here - this is true for majority and minority of thought)
+ Nice local town (New Paltz) with an excellent climbing/outdoors shop, good food, and again generally friendly people (still some weirdos though, like the local business owner who intentionally hit my car out of road rage and had the nerve to forgive me)
+ For those within a few hours drive (frequent trips) a season pass easily pays for itself
+ Plenty of multipitch
+ If you search, there's a variety of climbing styles (crack, slab, etc)
+ Tons of routes, many good quality and several very high quality in each grade
+ Close to the highway


No list of pros is complete without the cons...

- Close to NYC, one of the largest metropolitan populations in the WORLD (often crowded)
- Day use fees that some argue are too high
- Limited camping options for the number of climbers who desire camping
- No sport
- Difficulty ratings sometimes inconsistent with today's grades (generally regarded as sandbagged, but this really varies climb to climb - there's harder and easier climbs at every grade like at most larger crags)
- Resistence to bolted anchors, even when it could benefit the ecosystem/avoid eroded top outs
- Quality of the rock is suspect on several areas of the wall

Is this STILL bad? Am I still satan incarnate for having these opinions? How can someone have such confliction and still enjoy something?

FLAG
 
By BigA
Dec 3, 2012
I agree with most of your list. However, the crowds don't really venture past the front of the Trapps, nears, and peters kill. It's definitely more of a pain, but I can guarantee a cliff to myself on any given weekend...

As far as the sandbagged grades go, two cents: gunks routes were sometimes the first of their grade in the region if not the country. So the grades are accurate; it's modern grades that have gotten soft...regardless, its also nice knowing if you can climb a certain grade at the gunks, you can climb it anywhere...

Rest of your cons are spot on, and I would add weather to the list as well.

FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 9 of 12.  <<First   <Prev   7  8  9  10  11   Next>   Last>>