Route Guide - iPhone / Android - Partners - Forum - Photos - Deals - What's New - School of Rock
Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
The Gunks are way worthy!
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 7 of 12.  <<First   <Prev   5  6  7  8  9   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
By divnamite
From New York, NY
Nov 28, 2012

Kevin Heckeler wrote:
The way State lands are purchased and taxes paid for by the State is rather complicated. The Mohonk Preserve is likely paying very little in taxes compared to what other private (for profit/individual) owners would. I'm not even sure how much money the State gets back from having the Mohonk Preserve manage these lands. The not for profit is a nice shelter from the normal taxation pressures (also one of the things us naysayers bring up when they raise fees). The State may see nothing. At least if it was owned/operated under the DEC the State would see some form of revenue from the current fee structure (although it's doubtful the same high fee rate would be kept). One of the (supposed) reason fees are high is that the Mohonk Preserve has to do all the management, whereas the State has many of those mechanisms already in place at Albany. Administrative costs would be relatively low as a result, and those savings as well as partial tax payer funding from the general DEC budget would help keep access costs low per user. The DEC simply shifts manpower or hires a few extra Rangers knowing the income to pay for those additional salaries is guaranteed by the access fees. There's obviously a lot of people who like how it is, and people who earn a living as a direct or indirect result of how things are. But that alone doesn't make how things are right, or the best way of doing things. That's always been the spirit of these discussions. The ire created by even discussing such things among the pro preserve crowd raises many flags with us who aren't directly tied to those resources for our primary recreation or livelihood. I would think of us as 'objective outsiders'. People who like how things are think we're pests. :-/

Just out of curiosity, how much do you think the entrance fee should be?


FLAG
By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Nov 28, 2012
Colonel Mustard

divnamite wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how much do you think the entrance fee should be?


Here's the trick though Kevin: no matter what you say it will be wrong and you will be an eternal asshole for bringing it up ;). The sad part with this crowd is you get all the drama of a fight with your S.O. and none of the makeup sex.


FLAG
By SethG
Nov 28, 2012

I love the way you seem to think you speak for a movement, Kevin. Your grandiosity about things you know NOTHING ABOUT astounds me.


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 28, 2012
Rumney

SethG wrote:
I love the way you seem to think you speak for a movement, Kevin. Your grandiosity about things you know NOTHING ABOUT astounds me.


People complain about the Gunks fees regularly here, so I'm not alone. I don't feel (nor do I want) be a leader of anything, nor have I proclaimed such. I'm simply engaging in a conversation on an internet forum. This is exactly why forum's exist.

Gradiosity about what? I don't think that's the word you wanted to use (?).


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 28, 2012
Rumney

Colonel Mustard wrote:
The sad part with this crowd is you get all the drama of a fight with your S.O. and none of the makeup sex.


Seems to be true. That's why I largely ignore the assholes and pick/choose when and what to reply to. At least then I get an occassional reach around. ;-)

divnamite wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how much do you think the entrance fee should be?


Does it really matter? I doubt any value I post would be the right one and would be flamed for even suggesting I know how to count.

This issue is simple in theory and complex in execution. I'm not suggesting that anything posted here would be easy, or cheap. What I am suggesting is that the way things are done now isn't the only way, or necessarily the best way. It's just THE way it's being done.


FLAG
By divnamite
From New York, NY
Nov 28, 2012

Kevin Heckeler wrote:
Does it really matter? I doubt any value I post would be the right one and would be flamed for even suggesting I know how to count. This issue is simple in theory and complex in execution. I'm not suggesting that anything posted here would be easy, or cheap. What I am suggesting is that the way things are done now isn't the only way, or necessarily the best way. It's just THE way it's being done.

I see. You don't like the way Gunks is being run, regardless of the price. Given all the current model of running a recreational area (national parks, BLMs, forest services, state parks), which one is your preferred choice?


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 28, 2012
Rumney

divnamite wrote:
I see. You don't like the way Gunks is being run, regardless of the price. Given all the current model of running a recreational area (national parks, BLMs, forest services, state parks), which one is your preferred choice?


Again, not sure MY answer to this really matters. If you're looking to shoot the messenger, aim elsewhere. What I am interested in is seeing what other people think (see the prior two pages, lots of good discussion). Let the community decide if something else makes more sense. I'm simply one perspective among many. The shutdown attitude where people don't want any discussion on this subject is unhealthy though.

BTW, I don't think everything the preserve is doing is 'wrong'. I simply think there appears to be room for some major improvements (from an outsider's perspective), solutions include exploring what the preserve's future would look like in another manager's hands. See the other thread for more on that, not repeating an entire 7 page discussion here.


FLAG
By Happiegrrrl
From Gunks
Nov 28, 2012

Kevin Heckeler wrote:
Let the community decide if something else makes more sense.


This is part of the gist of why you get flack, Kevin. The community doesn't get to (directly) decide how the MP manages itself, and you continue on and on as if you have some better plan that should be enacted. You've more than once made points which have been refuted and debunked, and then post the point again. To others, it is as if you have been holding your hands over ears(or eyes) saying "Lalala I can't hear(see) you. It's trollish behavior at best. You repeat points ad nauseum, and are "having a conversation." Yet someone who addresses those points when you continue to make them is "brainwashed."

You've inferred you feel the state would be a better steward - and you certainly have a right to that opinion! - but that opportunity would only occur if the state just happened to be interested, and ready, willing and able, to quickly act upon an inexplicably gross failure of the land trust. You pose that scenario as if it were just a step or two away, and the image that you (intentionally or not) conjure stirs people up. People refute your arguments and you accuse them of being "koolaid drinkers" and in a recent post of receiving financial gain by somehow protecting the preserve from this internet bogeyman that YOU have created.

You have railed on about what you see as gross mismanagement of funds, when you really haven't the expertise, nor information, to be making such statements.(And if the receipt of duplicate mailings is your bolster to that point - god help us all for even listening). You post personal opinions as if they are facts, without qualifying them with an "I think," "I feel," or "I believe." You make them as if they are factual statements and YES, it embroils those who are disturbed by such grandiosity(that is the term I mean, by the way). If one were to follow your way of thinking, it would imply that people who have been on the board of directors are incompetent and perhaps worse. Those are grossly disturbing accusations to be throwing about.


FLAG
By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Nov 28, 2012
Colonel Mustard

Battle of the clunky writers! On grounds of clunkiness, no less.


FLAG
By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Nov 28, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on

Kevin how are you going to defend yourself? Your credibility and sense of reason have been seriously called into question!


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 29, 2012
Rumney

Like any other member on any other public forum, I post my opinions. If people agree or not doesn't change what opinion was stated. I offered an opinion about 'another way' the land could be managed, then get railed about how I'm an idiot for even thinking that. Really? And I'm the grandiose individual? haha

I never mentioned timelines, fast tracking, or whether the baby and bathwater all need to be tossed. It's simply another perspective given to what is usually a one way, one sided, and often pack driven philosophy about how it is. And yes, I take some pleasure in pointing out how over the top aggressive the pro-preserve bunch is (refer to the shining examples in both threads). I see it here, I see it on Gunks.com, and I see it with ANYONE (NOT just me) who steps to them and merely suggests they're possibly wrong, the preserve is doing something/anything poorly, or (heaven forbid!!!) the fees are too high. God save the fucking queen indeed. [disclaimer - I rarely go to gunks.com anymore, so maybe things are better there... but I doubt it based on the tone of the regulars there in a few of their responses here]

I posted links to the other thread to save this thread from repeating topics. Sorry if I don't respond to every post and point in every thread it's brought up. There's a lot of fear based conjecture as defense for why things are the way they are (if this then that because of boogeyman). I'm not saying to ignore the history, but I am suggesting that history is not static template from which to make ALL future decisions. There is no counter argument for someone who's convinced that what they fear is real. Emotion and reason are not the best bedfellows.

Does any of this make me popular? Not with the pro preserve bunch. But I don't live my life to be popular, Life isn't a popularity contest. I don't post here to make friends or enemies. I save that for sharing the rope. This is merely a place for exchange of ideas and information. Take what you need, leave the rest.

There's been a lot of productive conversation between the panty bunching in these threads. If it gets a single person to think objectively about the subject matter then all this dialogue is worth it. In the end I will go climbing, and whatever transpires here changes that not a single bit.


FLAG
By pooler
From Albany, NY
Nov 29, 2012

For cryin out loud, the Gunks are great if you donít mind the fees, and they do a great job maintaining the place. I mean come on stairs to the crag!! If you donít like the fees there are TONS of other places to climb. Just go there instead. Nuff saidÖ just my 2 cents though.

ps I think this thread may have gotten a bit off topic somewhere, just sayin


FLAG
By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Nov 29, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on

" If it gets a single person to think objectively about the subject matter then all this dialogue is worth it."

That is why you're receiving flack, son! It doesn't matter at all if anyone besides the owners think objectively about the subject matter...it's not as if this is a democratic process!

Thinking just gets people in trouble, anyway


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 29, 2012
Rumney

Ben Brotelho wrote:
That is why you're receiving flack, son! It doesn't matter at all if anyone besides the owners think objectively about the subject matter...it's not as if this is a democratic process!


People can (and I personally know a few who do) vote with their wallet.

There's greater access and management issues at play here that were/are very worthy of discussing. Nearly all of them give me a headache.


FLAG
By MojoMonkey
Nov 29, 2012

Kevin Heckeler wrote:
Like any other member on any other public forum, I post my opinions. If people agree or not doesn't change what opinion was stated. I offered an opinion about 'another way' the land could be managed, then get railed about how I'm an idiot for even thinking that. Really? And I'm the grandiose individual? haha


Perhaps it is context and location? Does every thread about the Gunks need to turn into complaining about the cost? This thread was about Andy having fun at the Gunks. The recent one you posted most of the same stuff in was about a dude getting a ticket and looking for info. Both turned into pages about this pretty well-hashed topic. The only way it could get any fresher is if someone brought up fixed gear / adding bolts.


FLAG
By BigA
Nov 29, 2012

It's self fulfilling prophecy. Look at Kevin's last name....


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 29, 2012
Rumney

MojoMonkey wrote:
Perhaps it is context and location? Does every thread about the Gunks need to turn into complaining about the cost? This thread was about Andy having fun at the Gunks. The recent one you posted most of the same stuff in was about a dude getting a ticket and looking for info. Both turned into pages about this pretty well-hashed topic. The only way it could get any fresher is if someone brought up fixed gear / adding bolts.


I'll give you the first thread, I vented a bit initially.

This thread had posts complaining about the fees before any of mine. Other threads here and at gunks.com have people complaining about the fees, and they're not posts by or initialized by me. I am NOT the only climber on the planet who thnks the fees are too high. Nice try though.

Also worthy to note, aside from my first two posts, I hadn't posted anything else in this thread about fees until the very end (we're talking 4-5 pages of content by everyone else). It wasn't until someone questioned a comment I made about 5.7s that I actually re-engaged this thread at any level, and only then it seems to reply to spillover from the other thread.

And what gives about that anti bolt bullshit? The preserve's gotta get hip to the times! :p


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 29, 2012
Rumney

BigA wrote:
It's self fulfilling prophecy. Look at Kevin's last name....


Born to do it.

Really, that's rather clever. Never made the connection to my last name being something out of the dictionary (minus an E). Gotta remember that one next time I'm doing standup.

And Terrie wonders why I ignore so many posts. Guess we're all guilty of spreading the love.


FLAG
By divnamite
From New York, NY
Nov 29, 2012

While I don't think the Gunks is expensive, I do think the Preserve can do better.
Especially it comes to providing better camping option. Paid shower stall would be nice too.


FLAG
By BigA
Nov 29, 2012

Was not pointing that out to you. You clearly already know.

It's the Internet...nothing here is worth getting upset over, taking seriously, or losing sleep over....That goes for those on both sides of this discussion, getting all riled up. I miss the days where people asked which cliffs stay dry or what their favorite 5.9s are.



Time for some fresh air...


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 29, 2012
Rumney

BigA wrote:
It's the Internet...nothing here is worth getting upset over, taking seriously, or losing sleep over...


Absolutely. The circle of sarcasm spins endlessly. ;-D


FLAG
By MojoMonkey
Nov 29, 2012

Kevin Heckeler wrote:
I'll give you the first thread, I vented a bit initially. This thread had posts complaining about the fees before any of mine. Other threads here and at gunks.com have people complaining about the fees, and they're not posts by or initialized by me. I am NOT the only climber on the planet who thnks the fees are too high. Nice try though. Also worthy to note, aside from my first two posts, I hadn't posted anything else in this thread about fees until the very end (we're talking 4-5 pages of content by everyone else). It wasn't until someone questioned a comment I made about 5.7s that I actually re-engaged this thread at any level, and only then it seems to reply to spillover from the other thread. And what gives about that anti bolt bullshit? The preserve's gotta get hip to the times! :p


Note that I didn't say you were the responsible party in all cases. I'm just saying that it is tiring to see Gunks threads devolve to it, regardless of who started it. It will be boring and annoying in the next thread when the next person does it, whether you even read or participate in the thread.


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 29, 2012
Rumney

MojoMonkey wrote:
Note that I didn't say you were the responsible party in all cases. I'm just saying that it is tiring to see Gunks threads devolve to it, regardless of who started it. It will be boring and annoying in the next thread when the next person does it, whether you even read or participate in the thread.


It's still fresh enough for me I suppose, as I've only been climbing 5 years and really committed to just climbing for the last 2-3. Plus, as gas and toll prices rise/stay high, the fees are felt more. Lucky for me I live close enough to justify getting the pass, but I feel bad for those who don't and have to pay that day use rate. One of my climbing buddies doesn't even go to the Gunks anymore due to these factors. Yes, some people's budgets are THAT tight.


FLAG
By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Nov 29, 2012
Stoked...

I suppose the high climbing fees keep the population low. . . if it was $5 it would be an incredible shit show. So I would bet using fee increases are probably part of the 'conservation' plan. If they dropped the price they could potentially earn just as much money but have many more people (and that's what they are likely trying to limit).

I'd say ask happie but she hasn't been so happy lately.


FLAG
By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Nov 29, 2012
Colonel Mustard

CaptainMo wrote:
I suppose the high climbing fees keep the population low. . . if it was $5 it would be an incredible shit show. So I would bet using fee increases are probably part of the 'conservation' plan. If they dropped the price they could potentially earn just as much money but have many more people (and that's what they are likely trying to limit). I'd say ask happie but she hasn't been so happy lately.


Hmmmm.... Put that way, I now completely understand and support the fees. Anything that limits the amount of societal leeches is fine by me.

A cheaper fee might not dissuade them, but when the parents see that these more frequent demands for money are cutting into the charming additions they had planned on the entertainment deck, why, there will be action! Music to face, by gum! It's time for Junior to start earning his own way by agreeing to work at least part time at Dad's firm, breaking out into hives or no.


FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 7 of 12.  <<First   <Prev   5  6  7  8  9   Next>   Last>>