The Erik Sloan ethics thread

It would probably help everyone's cause for someone to put up a list of all or a majority of Eric's non ethical actions to help others make an informed decision on whether buying his guide book is a place in which ones money should go. Probably would. And it's seconded here: As always, I"m happy to talk ethics with you guys, on a separate thread. So, let's see it everyone.

Come on everyone!! This is your chance to inform the public on why everyone's opinions about Eric were so warented. I'm looking forward to the list build up. Don't make me wait, I'm in route to JTree and I want some juicy tidbits to keep my mouth from drying out in the desert!!

There's a lot of threads full of Erik bashing on the supertopo forums. I would be interested in seeing a post that had descriptions and proof of his non-ethical actions.

The guy attracts a lot of haters and I wonder how much of it he deserves, and how much is blown out of proportion and/or totally false.

That's what I want too. I'm seeing a lot of people emotionally affected and hating but I don't know if anyone knows anything about him at all or if he's just the current idol for hate worship. Sooo many people have mentioned his mid way anchor on 1 Yosemite route (that has been chopped), what else has this guy done? This is reminding me of Monty Python and the Holy Grail. She's a witch!! "How do you know she's a witch?" "She has a pointy hat!" "Yeah, she turned me into a newt!" "You don't look like a newt." ...."Well, I got better." Evidence people! This is 2015, let's use our brains.

My good friend Richie introduced me to Erik in the winter of 2010. He (like Richie) was one of the nicest climbers I have ever met. I have heard nothing but very good things from everyone else I know that has met him.

Sounds like a bunch of haters if you ask me.

Keep up the good work Erik!

The only actions attributed to Erik that I have seen in person, and don't agree with, is the cutting/pruning of trees he undertook to widen parts of the approach trail to El Cap. This is a federal offense, and was unnecessary. It's actions like this , attempting to make the climbing experience more convenient, that I think so many people are reacting strongly to....

PosiDave, you wrote this about some area you appear to care about:

Does anyone know who is adding all of the bolt at Stover? They have bolted Trad routes and some of the bolts are horrible in some spots. Why are they turning PG13 /R rated trad climbs PG13/R rated sport climbs? Do gym kids enjoy just retrobolting climbing because they don't want to invest in a rack. If anyone can point me in the direction. I would like to discuss keeping trad routes the way they are without having to chop bolts. This goes with the large groups of climbers I saw the past three times I have made the short trip leave incredible amounts of garbage behind.

As far as my understanding goes, numerous well reputed Yosemite climbers say Erik has retro-bolted numerous pitches on various climbs throughout Yosemite. Do an internet search if you care enough about it. Additionally, when called out on it, he obfuscates the situation however he can. I will leave it to the people directly involved to present any specifics.

I have seen enough to know I will be buying the comprehensive guide, instead of Erik's select guide, the next time I head to Yosemite, however. This will be the case even if the Reid guide that is now years old is the only one available.

Erik has improved how many bolts in the Valley? He added a Midanchor on one climb for sure and it was chopped? slap him in the face once for each bolt and get that out of the way.

Erik is just an easy target because he is in the spotlight. He put up numerous big walls with my buddy and he always said Erik ruffled alot of peoples feathers for certain things, but much of it was due to people who didn't like him before for other unrelated reasons.

everyone I know that doesn't like the guy it is based on "I heard". Well, I heard everyone over the age of 30 on mountain project so a weirdo living in their parents basement. You guys should probably pass that on.

Your unrelated post to ethics on the east coast:

Ralph Stover had zero bolts, The anchorage bolts were absolutely fine by me as they cut down on the shitty tree anchors people were using and screwing up trees.

The main issue with that area was retro bolting whole climbs that were PG-G rated on gear to boost the business of a local gym that "guides" there. and at that they bolted Pg13 with Groundfall on other lines.

I have climbed with Erik several times and think he is a great guy who loves the valley. He has replaced thousands of bad lead bolts. I don't know of any retrobolting he has done, have never seen or heard complaints about him until seeing all the bashing on the forums here. I support him fully and will definitely buy his book!
I have a great idea, all you haters should protest Erik by not clipping a single bolt he has replaced anywhere in the valley, thatll show him! (and good luck not dying)

The main issue with that area was retro bolting whole climbs that were PG-G rated on gear to boost the business of a local gym that "guides" there.

Lol. Yep. Keep it positive, Dave ;)

Like I said, I have seen enough, and I will vote with my wallet.

I honestly don't care what you do by protesting his book. If that is your way of doing so, that is fine.

I am saying that spreading unconfirmed rumors on the internet is essentially a bunch of slander & you have no hard evidence (He isn't Ivan Greene and chiseling on video)

If you really had a problem and didn't want to protest his book, just go chop all 2,000 bolts as you free climb said routes and then hand them to him. I mean that is the "Ethics" of dealing with it in the valley? So let the history books repeat themself.

and how you think turning a G/PG rated trad climb into a PG13 sport climb with poorly placed (not fully in/on loose rock/etc) is similar makes no sense to me what so ever. If you are going to retrobolt in the name of safety at a choss crag, at least do so with the whole "safety" part in mind. When you rip out an anchor that is old and replace it with a Bolt I can remove almsot by hand, you are just going to kill someone.

If you really had a problem and didn't want to protest his book, just go chop all 2,000 bolts as you free climb said routes and then hand them to him. I mean that is the "Ethics" of dealing with it in the valley? So let the history books repeat themself.

Personally, I am super stoked about the 2000+ bolts he has replaced. If it wasn't him, it would be someone else. As is, I personally commend his services there.

As for yourself PosiDave, am I reading correctly when I say it appears you don't so much care about retrobolting (unless it is used to justify guiding services of some sort) as much as unsafe retrobolting?

Dave while I don't agree with any of the retrobolting at Stover, it's not fair to say there were no bolts prior. There were a handful of routes, all of which went with just one bolt, all placed on lead with one exception.

I'd agree the situation is out of control there. You did the Phone Booth solo yes?

Woot!

Regarding Sloane being a nice guy or doing re-bolting as community service, sorry but that doesn't get him a free pass to alter the game.

Noobs practicing aid anywhere in the first 40 feet is a recipe for disaster, and a bad idea.

In general, people have no problem with Erik re-bolting routes as long as they are done on a one for one basis. What pisses people off is his retro-bolting of already established routes to make them easier for shorter climbers or less scary for those less talented climbers. He has admitted to doing these things in the threads.

And then there is this from Greg Barnes of the ASCA....

"his(Erik's) vision of bolt replacement on Yosemite wall routes differs so substantially from that of the community that the ASCA has completely withdrawn support for his work"

But hey, this is all a witch hunt, right?

Which routes specifically did he supposedly retro-bolt?

Asside from the mid-way anchor, I haven't seen anyone give a list of the routes he supposedly altered. I have seen plenty of people say something along the lines of, "several really important famous/well known people told me that Erik retro-bolted a bunch of routes", but no-one is saying WHICH routes.

I'm with Jon Hartman; give some evidence or let the witch hunt die.

He increased the bolt count on Ten Days After, The Great Slab Route, and Book of Revelation.

Not that I've seen them or am all worked up about it, he just said he did on supertopo, that's all.

limpingcrab wrote:He increased the bolt count on Ten Days After, The Great Slab Route, and Book of Revelation. Not that I've seen them or am all worked up about it, he just said he did on supertopo, that's all.

My understanding of the rebolting of Ten Days After is that he replaced "new" 1/4inchers with 3/8ths bolts. The only bolts I know of that were added were to the anchors, possibly to facilitate hanging bags/ledges etc.

This all speculation on my part, but placing 1/4inch buttonheads in 2015 seems more irresponsible than the replacement of said bolts with 3/8inch bolts with a power drill.

Other than the 3 routes listed and some (maybe illegal?) trail widening, what else is there?

Bill C. wrote:Which routes specifically did he supposedly retro-bolt? Asside from the mid-way anchor, I haven't seen anyone give a list of the routes he supposedly altered. I have seen plenty of people say something along the lines of, "several really important famous/well known people told me that Erik retro-bolted a bunch of routes", but no-one is saying WHICH routes. I'm with Jon Hartman; give some evidence or let the witch hunt die.

hearsay is popular these days on the internet, I mean gosh, the guys on Supertaco said it right?

no list yet.

Bill C. wrote:Other than the 3 routes listed and some (maybe illegal?) trail widening, what else is there?

Maybe illegal?

Refer to Code of Federal Regulations, 36 CFR 2.1. The following is prohibited:

"Possessing, destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing from its natural state" , included in that are..... (ii) "Plants or the parts or products thereof."

I'm not sure how you misinterpret that in a National Park and take a hack saw to trees at the base of El Capitan...

vincent L. wrote: Maybe illegal? Refer to Code of Federal Regulations, 36 CFR 2.1. The following is prohibited: "Possessing, destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing from its natural state" , included in that are..... (ii) "Plants or the parts or products thereof." I'm not sure how you misinterpret that in a National Park and take a hack saw to trees at the base of El Capitan...

Wow, so now trail maintenance? Holy shit, this guy is the fuking DEVIL Vinny! Next time you see a loose rock on a route or a downed branch in the trail or chalk on the wall you better get in touch with the proper authorities and let them know.

It's fine T Roper, I understand you don't see that chopping branches that generations of climbers dealt with, and saw fit to walk by without cutting, is a big deal. But surely you must be able to comprehend that there are climbers out there that don't agree with that attitude: that just because something can be made easier, or more convenient, it should. Whether it's branches or extra bolts in the stone.