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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Mar 27, 2014
Coup
Dominic, don't think I missed the part where, at Prison Camp, I asked you a question, and instead of answering from a normal conversational distance, you stepped up to within a foot of my face.

Yes, that falls under my definition of potentially violent.

FLAG
By Dominic Weinstock
Mar 27, 2014
I genuinely dont recall said instance.....but im sure it was a hostile one....because it certainly couldnt have been due to prison camp being notorisouly loud with wind and children.

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By Anders Zway
Mar 27, 2014
Yes Christian, Dominic and I are the most violent people anyone has ever meet (extreme eye roll). We go around at night talking too close to peoples faces and eating their first born children,if those are too small we eat their second born. We beat our friends and loved ones when they step out of line or if we have a bad day, because why not? We like to trip the elderly as well when we're board.

Lets TRY and get this thread back on topic. Here is a picture of my maintenance kit I carry around with me all the time.


Maintenance Kit
Maintenance Kit


Kit Includes:
- 2 spare nuts and hangers in case the route I'm climbing is somehow missing some.
- Wrench
- spare anchors in case I find some worn out that need replacing
- brush, for cleaning less popular routes when on them
- 1 bail beaner, cause sometime I get scared...so what.

Again EFR, Jimbo, Geir and all those guys are good to contact if you need more information on good items for your maintenance kits.


FLAG
By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Mar 27, 2014
Coup
Dominic Weinstock wrote:
I genuinely dont recall said instance.....but im sure it was a hostile one....because it certainly couldnt have been due to prison camp being notorisouly loud with wind and children.


You know what Dominic? Much like Anders, I grew up in a violent place. Friends of mine and friends of the family were murdered, kidnapped, or harrassed by kidnappers to the point where they murdered their entire family and then committed suicide. My stepmother died in a gruesome car accident when macho Brazilian taxi driver met macho Brazilian bus driver. I've had guns and knives pulled on me during random street crime from a very early age.

Most of my friends growing up were badass BJJ fighters and often going out at night was just a process of waiting for the nightly melee. Even though I mostly didn't participate and didn't learn any martial arts myself until much later, I was often at physical risk myself just by virtue of being there. But I was mostly left alone because my best friend was a cousin of the Gracies.

Because of my upbringing and because I know where he's coming from growing up in South Africa, I can't help but admire some of Anders' toughness. Paradoxically, that also makes me trust him more, because he probably understands getting into a cycle of aggression and retaliation is just not worth it.

You, on the other hand, scare me more because you seem like you have something to prove.

Don't even try to blame what you did at Prison Camp on noise because that is utter bullshit. But the dumbfounded look on your face when I didn't step back was almost worth the whole incident. Overall though, I would have preferred it not to happen, and I'm not stupid enough to relish the prospect of having to defend myself from someone who's got almost 70 lbs on me.

Rest assured I will defend my right to feel safe in my own (adopted) city, even if it means exposing this kind of stuff publicly. I feel other people should know about this stuff too and it's also a way of keeping myself safer.

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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 27, 2014
Toofast
Folks.

I have known Christian for 8 years and consider him a close friend. He is about as fair and level headed a person as I have ever met.

I haven't met Anders or Dom in person (as far as I recall) and I wasn't around for any of the incidents that sparked this.

However, in my time in Tucson I have definitely seen deliberate intimidation and threats occur. I have personally witnessed people threaten to assault other climbers, both in person and in writing. Let's not kid ourselves or gloss over the fact that this kind of stuff happens.

Let me be the first to say I am not perfect and get worked up about climbing stuff more than most. Most people know I take pretty staunch positions and I try to be honest about it. However, I do my best not to deliberately threaten folks. If I see that happen the people involved lose all credibility and respect as far as I am concerned.

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By Jimbo
Mar 27, 2014
Geir, it's a good thing you didn't mention any names or we would have to kill you.

Christian, I would not for a second call my doing new routes an altruistic endeavor. I love doing new routes, finding that great gem of a climb. It's all for me with the added benefit for other people in the future.

Anders and I had an internet spat some years ago. Now we're conferring with each other about new routes on a regular basis. I like this kind of relationship much better. Way more productive.

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By Dominic Weinstock
Mar 27, 2014
Again....genuinely dont know what youre refering to at pc.....but if it would give you peice of mind ill keep my distance......not my intentions for anyone to feel threatened.

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By TYJ1981
Mar 27, 2014
OMG what do you know more bickering and fighting among the climbing community of Arizona and New Mexico. Its pretty sad and pathetic you guys are all such a bunch of whiners, I haven't seen any other climbing community act this lame. Sure there is argueing and bickering but people from NM and AZ always manage to take it to a new level! You guys are sad.

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By TYJ1981
Mar 27, 2014
1Eric Rhicard wrote:
I would love to see a post like this. Found a loose hanger on Nang so I took my wrench back up the climb and tightened it back down.


Why would ANYONE EVER make a post like that? That is just stupid and a waste of everyones time. Should people also make posts telling people a hold was sandy so they decided to brush it off? Or maybe you would like to know everytime someone picks up a piece of litter at the cliff? The reason no one makes these posts is because it doesn't need to be reported to the climbing community where as lose or crappy bolts should be.(yes people shoudl tighten it down themselves but if they don't for wahtever reason I dont see an issue with a post telling other climbers about it)

Sheesh has the desert sun burned everyones brains in NM and AZ or what? What a sad excuse for a climbing community, we are all climbers. Stop acting like a bunch of 11 year old girls on the playground. Gosh you are a bunch of a little girls.

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By csproul
From Davis, CA
Mar 27, 2014
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the backgrou...
TYJ1981 wrote:
Why would ANYONE EVER make a post like that? That is just stupid and a waste of everyones time. Should people also make posts telling people a hold was sandy so they decided to brush it off? Or maybe you would like to know everytime someone picks up a piece of litter at the cliff? The reason no one makes these posts is because it doesn't need to be reported to the climbing community where as lose or crappy bolts should be.(yes people shoudl tighten it down themselves but if they don't for wahtever reason I dont see an issue with a post telling other climbers about it) Sheesh has the desert sun burned everyones brains in NM and AZ or what? What a sad excuse for a climbing community, we are all climbers. Stop acting like a bunch of 11 year old girls on the playground. Gosh you are a bunch of a little girls.

No dog in this fight, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone posting that a route needs maintenance, or that maintenance was performed. If you don't possess the knowledge or skills to fix something on a route, or you just don't have the tools with you, then I consider it a good public service to post up and let people know that something might ned fixing. Sure, it'd be better if everyone just fixed it themselves. I'm all for everyone learning more about the equipment and carrying a fix-it kit. Great idea, but the next best thing is to let other people know that something they're about to get on might need a little TLC. Not sure why anyone would take offense to that.

As for announcing that you just did route maintenance, also a good public service. Maybe you've been avoiding a route because you heard the hangers were loose. Of course the best thing you could do is to fix it, but the reality is that not everyone is going to know how to do it. So I'd welcome to if someone posted up and told me a route was fixed...I'd know it was good to go, and I'd know who to thank. Again, not sure why anyone would be offended by this.

FLAG
By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Mar 27, 2014
tanuki
WOW!

Everyone I have met at the crags in AZ has been totally cool. Seriously, in the three years since I moved back to Phoenix and the time I spent climbing here while living in Tucson in the 90s I have not had a single bad interaction. Not one. In fact, most folks I have met at the crags here have gone out of their way to be really nice. With that in mind, I am totally baffled by these Souther AZ threads that are so often filled with conflict and vitriol.

I hope to see you all out at the crag, but never want to piss any of you off on the intrewebs.

Cheers.

FLAG
By TYJ1981
Mar 27, 2014
NC Rock Climber wrote:
WOW! Everyone I have met at the crags in AZ has been totally cool. Seriously, in the three years since I moved back to Phoenix and the time I spent climbing here while living in Tucson in the 90s I have not had a single bad interaction. Not one. In fact, most folks I have met at the crags here have gone out of their way to be really nice. With that in mind, I am totally baffled by these Souther AZ threads that are so often filled with conflict and vitriol. I hope to see you all out at the crag, but never want to piss any of you off on the intrewebs. Cheers.


Exactly, I am not sure why AZ and NM people spend so much of their time online bickering. Does the climbing or weather suck there or do you guys just like to bicker with eachother. All of your threads turn into some huge arguement/pissing match. Its kinda sad and pathetic to be honest.

FLAG
By Jason Halladay
Administrator
From Los Alamos, NM
Mar 27, 2014
Climbing at the Belvedere crag near Nago with a gr...
TYJ1981 wrote:
(A bunch of silly generalizations about online bickering)

In case you haven't noticed, this happens in all internet forums from people living all over the world. You can chime in with your input but making aggressive and silly generalizations adds nothing to the thread. I have to give kudos to these guys here for using their real names in the forum and at least communicating about issues/problems they feel they have.

And to answer your question in one of your rants, the weather definitely does NOT suck in AZ and NM--we've got it damn good.

Anders Zway, that's a good-looking maintenance kit you've got. Well done.

FLAG
By TYJ1981
Mar 27, 2014
Jason Halladay wrote:
In case you haven't noticed, this happens in all internet forums from people living all over the world. You can chime in with your input but making aggressive and silly generalizations adds nothing to the thread. I have to give kudos to these guys here for using their real names in the forum and at least communicating about issues/problems they feel they have. And to answer your question in one of your rants, the weather definitely does NOT suck in AZ and NM--we've got it damn good. Anders Zway, that's a good-looking maintenance kit you've got. Well done.


I disagree. You guys from NM and AZ have taken online bickering to a whole new level. Sure online bickering is rampant but thats usually directed at random topics, not specific geographical locations. Where is all the threats of violence from people in the Utah thread? Or the Nevada threads? Kentucky? Oregon and Washington?

Nope, this type of fighting amongst each other is specific to one area and its NM and AZ! It has been discussed before. Are people just douche's there that don't know how to play nice or whats up with all the hate for eachother?

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By 1Eric Rhicard
Mar 28, 2014
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
Our problem down here in the SW is we can climb 340 days a year so we have a better chance of rubbing each other the wrong way. Not the end of the world. Never actually heard of anyone doing anything as silly as assaulting anyone. I am guessing with a little introspection among those involved this will work itself out as these things almost always do.

It helps that most folks down here have the guts to use their real names so we all know who is not getting along.

FLAG
By 1Eric Rhicard
Mar 28, 2014
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
Nice Kit Anders!

FLAG
 
By Robbie Mackley
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 28, 2014
Me and Holden at the "Matterhorn"
Well said Eric.

FLAG
By George Perkins
From Los Alamos, NM
Mar 28, 2014
I'm not a crusher; I just spray a lot.
TYJ1981 wrote:
I disagree. You guys from NM and AZ have taken online bickering to a whole new level. Sure online bickering is rampant but thats usually directed at random topics, not specific geographical locations. Where is all the threats of violence from people in the Utah thread? Or the Nevada threads? Kentucky? Oregon and Washington? Nope, this type of fighting amongst each other is specific to one area and its NM and AZ! It has been discussed before. Are people just douche's there that don't know how to play nice or whats up with all the hate for eachother?
I'll take a crack at addressing why there are some frustrations in these states.

I want to state up front I'm not intending to take a side on these points, and I might not be fully educated. Also, the 2 states are unique. I'm disappointed to see another thread with useful information degenerate into personal attacks. Anyway, here are some reasons:

1. There's both a recent and extended history of climbing areas with threatened or closed access (e.g., Enchanted Tower, Queen Creek/Oak Flat, Last Chance, Crystal Cave, Navajo Nation, Brazos Cliffs, the bolting ban in the Supes, and nearby Hueco Tanks).

2. Both states see considerable visitation from non-local climbers (Californians, Coloradns, Arizona climbers in NM, or southern Arizona climbers in the Flag area). The (relative) crowding and trashing of areas gets blamed on non-locals.

3. Some of the great sport climbing areas here have poor rock quality. This in turn leads to cleaning and, at times, gluing. Also, because these areas are initially developed in isolation, developers (in particular, elite climbers) are not initially held accountable to the community at large; this means there has been some chipping/hold modification at times at some areas too. All this results in conflict on ethical reasons.

4. There's a perception that local/state government, and FS/BLM, views climbing more of a liability, and less of a valuable recreational use of public land.

5. Largely due to the 4 above reasons, many areas were developed secretly, or without publicly available beta, or with limited beta. (Historically, limited beta may also be in part due to a smaller market for guidebooks. MP and the web now make the publication market not a factor.) Many examples of this, for years now. This results in further hard feelings by those excluded; and, sometimes, conflict among those who are involved in the areas about the path forward toward sharing the areas. There can be bad feelings when your peaceful area is now crowded since it was published. The current Cochise guidebook bickering (the area hasn't seen a new guide book in 20+ years.. now 2 are coming out?) seems to at least have some of their roots in this, and perhaps the following reason.

6. 2 of the main wilderness trad areas (Cochise Stronghold, Sandias) have seen significant changes in the style of route development in the last 15 years. Both were originally climbed in a ground-up traditional style, while more recent development usually involves more bolts, is often a contrast to the ground-up style, and also is sometimes accompanied by allegations of illegal power drill use.

7. There's a general belief (right or wrong?) that these states are largely off the radar and seeing little support from organizations such as the Access Fund in handling these issues. (Queen Creek may be an exception to this, IMO.)

There are reasons for all of these, and these problems are not unique to these states. I don't think these reasons are all fully valid, and I don't think bickering or confrontation (in person, or online) is the right answer. Hope this helps. If you come out here for a visit, you probably won't notice any of the above.

To return to the original topic:
The OP and others have posted about replacing hangers, lowering biners, replacing old bolts, and cleaning, which most agree is good. Taken a step further, we get into the gray area in which those developers may not be so supportive of community responsibility and folks taking action on their own. Well-intentioned individuals might, and have: moved poorly placed bolts, added bolts to runouts, removed bolts near gear placements and non-original bolts, added unnecessary rap anchors, added permadraws, removed unnecessary permadraws, clean loose-but-usable important holds, and so on. In other words: Fix things, just fix them in a way I agree with. :)

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By Miike
From MA/CT border
Mar 28, 2014
my foot
Where are you guys getting these eye hooks ?

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By JoeS
Mar 28, 2014
While it saddens me to see these sort of misunderstandings lead to so much negativity, let's keep things in perspective. People here are no different from people anywhere else. Have you read some of the posts on SuperTopo? Ken Nichols vandalized routes and got in fistfights in Connecticut and Yosemite Valley has a rich history of verbal and physical altercations, at times involving law enforcement. So as disappointing as it is to see members of our community angry at one another, let's not move from there to false explanations as to why our community is any different than the others.

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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 28, 2014
Toofast
Eric, George, Joe: very sell said. +3.

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Mar 28, 2014
tanuki
I'll say it again - in person, at the crag, the AZ climbing community is the most friendly I have found anywhere.

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By Jack Ubaek
From tucson
Mar 28, 2014
Alana B
Dang really? and ppl call me short tempered. A couple snide comments here and there and you guys are ready to roll in the dirt. If theres a crag brawl up on lemmon i better get invited.

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By Jimbo
Mar 29, 2014
TYJ1981: Four posts full of vitriol complaining about AZ and New Mexico's vitriol. Classic do as I say not as I do mentality.

I've got an idea, if our little spats upset you so much, don't read them!

Tucson does have one of the most welcoming climbing communities I've ever been in.

FLAG
 
By J Q
Mar 31, 2014
Me again!
TYJ1981 wrote:
Its kinda sad and pathetic to be honest.


Nice try,
but sad and pathetic is a rookie troll who repeats himself over, and over, and over, again.

How many times do you usually repeat yourself before people tell you to shut up?



But seriously, George said it best when he said: shit's all fucked up in the SW. Better go poo at the red instead.

FLAG


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