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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Mar 25, 2014
Bucky
1Eric Rhicard wrote:
Just for the record I have never used a torque wrench and never ever twisted off a bolt in over 35 years of placing bolts. I have never heard of a bolt that had a wrench used to tighten it fail in Southern AZ.


You are sort of addressing the point that I was trying to raise in my earlier post (i.e., how weak is an overtightened bolt). If you snap the head off, well then sure, you know the bolt is compromised. But just because you have never snapped off a head doesn't mean that over the course of 35 years of bolting that you have never placed a bolt (or a bunch of bolts) that lie within the range of overtightened and significantly weakened.

For example, if the manufacturer spec is 20 ft-lbs and snapping the head comes at 60 ft-lbs, then what about the bolt that is overtightened somewhere in between...say 35 ft-lbs. How much drop off is there in strength? Enough to be dangerous?

This kind of question makes me wonder whether there are a fair number of bolts out there that were overtightened almost to the point of shearing, but not quite...is that a time bomb? Just a thought.

(to be clear Eric, this question is not trying to imply any sort of distrust of your bolting, but rather I am trying to probe your 35 years of experience for insight).

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By Williampenner
From The 505
Mar 25, 2014
Beaver Mountain
J. Albers wrote:
Just because you have never snapped off a head doesn't mean that over the course of 35 years of bolting that you have never placed a bolt (or a bunch of bolts) that lie within the range of overtightened and significantly weakened. For example, if the manufacturer spec is 20 ft-lbs and snapping the head comes at 60 ft-lbs, then what about the bolt that is overtightened somewhere in between...say 35 ft-lbs. How much drop off is there in strength? Enough to be dangerous? This kind of question makes me wonder whether there are a fair number of bolts out there that were overtightened almost to the point of shearing, but not quite...is that a time bomb? Just a thought. (to be clear Eric, this question is not trying to imply any sort of distrust of your bolting, but rather I am trying to probe your 35 years of experience for insight).


Since this post is veering off into torque settings and bolting esoterica, can anyone provide an example of a bolt failing in climbing because it was over-tightened? As someone who has placed hundreds of bolts and only uses my torque wrench for working on motorcycles, I would love to hear about it even though it totally misses the point of the topic. Also, give some context to the failure--bolt type, rock type, placement type, etc.

Without any hard data this appears to be a red herring concocted by engineer types who love thinking about weird situations that hardly ever occur in the real world.

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By csproul
From Rancho Cordova, CA
Mar 25, 2014
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background
Williampenner wrote:
Since this post is veering off into torque settings and bolting esoterica, can anyone provide an example of a bolt failing in climbing because it was over-tightened? As someone who has placed hundreds of bolts and only uses my torque wrench for working on motorcycles, I would love to hear about it even though it totally misses the point of the topic. Also, give some context to the failure--bolt type, rock type, placement type, etc. Without any hard data this appears to be a red herring concocted by engineer types who love thinking about weird situations that hardly ever occur in the real world.

If a bolt failed, how would we know it occurred from over tightening?

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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Mar 25, 2014
Bucky
Williampenner wrote:
Without any hard data this appears to be a red herring concocted by engineer types who love thinking about weird situations that hardly ever occur in the real world.


I am inclined to agree with you on this Will, but I really have no idea.

And yes, this forum post is perhaps hopelessly of the rails (sorry). If it makes you feel any better I used to help maintain some of your local crags when I lived in NM (and all I had back then was a cheapo box wrench).

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By Williampenner
From The 505
Mar 25, 2014
Beaver Mountain
csproul wrote:
If a bolt failed, how would we know it occurred from over tightening?


Nice job providing an example of missing the forest for the over-tightened trees, even though your question is a good one :) I am certain some engineer could figure out a way to know this and I would guess this only would apply to bolts that were sheared off rather than pulled out.

Alright then, I modify my request to someone providing us with any incidences of modern 3/8" or 1/2" bolts failing in common usage in the SW. Again, provide the type of bolt, placement, rock, etc.

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By 1Eric Rhicard
Mar 25, 2014
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
Someone needs to write a grant proposal? I think it is an interesting question J Albers. I do think it is possible that I have overtightened some bolts. I also think if this was a real problem we would have dozens of failures considering the thousands of falls that occur every year. Maybe the bad bolts have never been fallen on.

No worries about the thread drift. Made my point.

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By Michael Schneiter
From Glenwood Springs, CO
Mar 25, 2014
Goofin' on the Grand after soloing the Upper Exum with my wife.
Williampenner wrote:
Since this post is veering off into torque settings and bolting esoterica, can anyone provide an example of a bolt failing in climbing because it was over-tightened? As someone who has placed hundreds of bolts and only uses my torque wrench for working on motorcycles, I would love to hear about it even though it totally misses the point of the topic. Also, give some context to the failure--bolt type, rock type, placement type, etc. Without any hard data this appears to be a red herring concocted by engineer types who love thinking about weird situations that hardly ever occur in the real world.


As others stated, it's obviously hard to prove but it's believed that the cause of a bolt failure in Rifle a couple summers ago was from an overtightened bolt. It was a 1/2" SS Powers that had been placed a few years prior (I don't know the exact date) and failed after someone fell on it.

So, I don't think it's completely a red herring although it's hard to have happen. I've snapped plenty of bolts, on purpose, by over tightening and I've broken a lot of old bolts with some ease by over tightening.

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By Joe G
From Phoenix, AZ
Mar 25, 2014
Jesus christ people it's not rocket science. If a bolt is loose to the point of spinning tighten it up. If someone is dumb enough to over tighten a bolt to the point of failure their use of a wrench is the least of our problems, they probably shouldn't be driving to the crag or belaying. I have placed thousands of bolts in 20 years of construction setting heavy equipment and hanging large pipe over head on a tensile pull and have never broke off a bolt. Almost all bolt placements are at a shear pull and not a tensile pull , roofs being the exception. And any monkey with a wrench and common sence should be able to remedy a loose bolt.

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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 25, 2014
Toofast
jefe wrote:
We may need these after all. Will I have to register on your website to see them?


Nah, just send me $46.

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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 25, 2014
Toofast
Joe G wrote:
Jesus christ people it's not rocket science. If a bolt is loose to the point of spinning tighten it up. If someone is dumb enough to over tighten a bolt to the point of failure their use of a wrench is the least of our problems, they probably shouldn't be driving to the crag or belaying. I have placed thousands of bolts in 20 years of construction setting heavy equipment and hanging large pipe over head on a tensile pull and have never broke off a bolt. Almost all bolt placements are at a shear pull and not a tensile pull , roofs being the exception. And any monkey with a wrench and common sence should be able to remedy a loose bolt.


Hahahahaha Joe!!!!

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By Joe G
From Phoenix, AZ
Mar 26, 2014
You'll lose money at 46 bucks :)

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By jefe
Mar 26, 2014
Geir wrote:
Nah, just send me $46.


Well played, well played.

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By brian benedon
Mar 26, 2014
fa Dog Fights Alright .-11, Dog Park
Let me get this right, I need a 70m rope, an 8" wrench, hangers, nuts, binners to climb around here? Last time I climbed Klingons on Golder Dome the 2nd piton broke off in my hand, I guess I need Bolt kit too? Just messing with you dude.

With regards to bolt torque; If you are not sure, just give the bolt a snug, but if the nut does not spin freely, back off, so as not to make it worse. Rather enter the information on the " S. Az. climbs in need of repair list", or come back with a bolt kit and replace the bad pro.

With regards to taking responsibility for your area's; I would not ask DB to go back and fix bolts placed in the 70s but if you actively put up routes on a regular basis, I think it is reasonable for you to drop back and maintain your lines occasionally.

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By Jimbo
Mar 26, 2014
Nickin CO: Did I not specifically state that is was better to post a problem even if you can't fix it?

I reacted to your generalization about all new routers having a sense of self importance. That's simple not true, at least around here. Maybe it's different in CO.

Don't get me wrong we are really important it's just we're to modest to flaunt it.

Perhaps my "bottom feeder" comment was off base in regards to you, but those of us that willingly and happily spend loads of time and money doing new routes do get tired of people who never do new routes, but are happy to clip every bolt and climb every route that wouldn't be there if we didn't do them, complaining about some aspect of the route.
To them I say, go do your own routes then and show us all how it should be done, otherwise STFU.

This of course has never happened with one of my routes but I do rise to the defense of other guys routes.

I get very tired of people in general complaining about a web site or a guide book or a new route, when they never have and never will produce any of these things themselves. Kind of like the fat tub of lard on the couch on Sunday raging about how the quarterback needs to learn out to throw. This from a guy that never has and never will have the skill or determination be good enough to play in the NFL. STFU dude.

I agree with Brian, the person that did the new route should maintain it to some degree if they are still living in the area.

Though the routes I do are so cleverly designed and created they rarely need maintenance. But because my skill set is so rarified and unique in the world of new routers, the importance of constant vigilance with other dudes routes cannot be overstated.


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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Mar 26, 2014
Ooops...
Let's not get too carried away implying that FAists are the only true altruists on the planet. Everybody does the things they do because THEY want to, it is enjoyable FOR THEM. There is no true altruism. I would gladly sacrifice my life to save my daughter's life and that would still be an act of self-interest.

The person Anders is mentioning is me. I thought they had forgotten to put washers on the bolts and that is why the nuts were loosening. When he informed me it was intentional I took my post down. This was the day after I went there specifically to Loctite and tighten 4 or 5 of the bolts at Ireland. When I got back home after Loctiting them, it occured to me there were no washers. I didn't need to go back there, I had already sent the one 12 there that I actually wanted to do.

If I feel like someone might go out there the next day and climb on the route in question, I'm gonna post it up, I'm not gonna count on the FAist getting out there first. When it is fixed I will take the post down. I don't need anybody's permission to do this.

Not everybody is interested in being an FAist. I try to contribute in other ways: cleaning up the mountain, contributing financially to AF, ASCA, SACC, holding the rope and carrying gear for the FAists. Moving their ropes out of the way when they're cleaning the route, etc
Geir and EFR can testify that I have done these things.

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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Mar 26, 2014
Ooops...
PS For context, Anders posted and then deleted basically calling me an ignorant a-hole (not in those exact words but that was the net effect)for daring to post about the washers. I realize now maybe I should have e-mailed him first, but frankly I was tired and it didn't occur to me and I had had less-than-stellar results trying to communicate with other FAists in the past. And what I posted was deleted within minutes of hearing about the deliberate non-use of washers from Anders.

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By Dominic Weinstock
Mar 26, 2014
Christain if you got a problem with anders then grow a fuckin sac and sort it out with him......enough of this internet slander bullshit

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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Mar 26, 2014
Ooops...
Dominic Weinstock wrote:
Christain if you got a problem with anders then grow a fuckin sac and sort it out with him......enough of this internet slander bullshit


You're under the delusion that I give a shit what you think about me Dominic.

There is nothing factually incorrect about what I wrote. If I run into Anders, which I will, I'll deal with the issue of defending myself when it happens.

I've been around the block Dominic, I'm not in the habit of putting myself in close physical proximity to people who are morbidly angry.

The last physical meeting between us didn't solve anything, he never forgave me and continued to demonstrate that every time I saw him after that.

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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 26, 2014
Toofast
I can confirm that Christian has been nothing short of exemplary when it comes to helping maintain climbs.

I never saw the exchange about the washers. However, discussing it online is no big deal. It's not like anyone is being accused of crimes and I seriously doubt Christian ever meant it that way.

Generally speaking if people post routes here, it's reasonable to ask questions about those routes here as well.

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By JoeS
Mar 26, 2014
Iím going to second what was said by Geir in his latest post. We should all feel free to put forward our opinions (even climbers who never put up routes) without it leading to personal attacks, or worse yet threats of violence. There are no real bad guys here. Elsewhere in the world people are being starved and having their limbs chopped off. Itís just climbing, go out and have some fun.

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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Mar 26, 2014
Ooops...
There are no direct threats of violence towards me here or via e-mail or any other way, but there is a lot of anger which could erupt into violence. I think the probability is extremely small though.

But we have less control over our animal natures than we think we do sometimes so it is better not to tempt fate. I can't go into detail and it was a long friggin' time ago, but trust me, one time I too was in my twenties.

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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Mar 26, 2014
Ooops...
For the record, if it isn't obvious from the other posts, I have decided not to meet with Anders in person.

The last meeting gave me the false hope that things were resolved, but nothing could be further from the truth.

He will post his own side of the story and explain how he has managed to caricature me into some conveniently evil person.

We all have flaws, but being an instigator that starts crap just for the fun of it is not one of mine. I have more important things to worry about.

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By Anders Zway
Mar 26, 2014
Ignore Christian's bickering. Hes trying to make a personal issue a public issue, which I choose not to take part in. I apologize to everyone for being subjected to this dribble.

Go climbing, have fun and be safe.

Warm Regards - Anders



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By Robbie Mackley
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 26, 2014
Me and Holden at the "Matterhorn"
POSTED FROM A COMPLETELY NONBIAS STANDPOINT:
As a newer member of the SoAZ climbing community (about 4 years ago), I was surprised to hear stories about past fights, feudes, bickering, and general disrespect towards each other in SoAZ.
When I came onto this scene everyone was always so welcoming.
Lately the aforementioned flames of aggression seem to have been rekindled. Usually over nonproductive post to area specific threads.
It would seem to me that the "problem" actually lies in that, many climbers now days are accoustomed to trusting every bolt fully and blindly. I do it often, but I've also bothered to read the first paragraph in every instructional/guide book I've ever read. It always says something to the effect of;
"Climbing is enherrantly dangerous... ...use this book along with your best judgement at YOUR OWN RISK.
To me this applys to every bolt I clip. (Maybe someone other than the FA has messed with a bolt, or two, or all of them.)
Eric, Jimbo, Geir, et. all are just posting a PSA. If you don't like it don't adhere to its message, teach those you mentor differently, and state when publishing your own FA's that you would like to be contacted before ANY MAINTENENCE IS DONE. But please don't turn this into another SoAZ sucks, bolt/ethics war, shit show.
Respectfully,
-Mackley

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By David Sahalie
From on the road again
Mar 26, 2014
About time we ourselves a good ol AZ crazy thread.

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