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By 1Eric Rhicard
Mar 23, 2014
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
Tired posts about loose nuts/spinning hangers, hanger missing blah blah blah. These usually come from people who spend their weekends out there climbing. You are out there start helping maintain it.

I would love to see a post like this. Found a loose hanger on Nang so I took my wrench back up the climb and tightened it back down. Or, missing hanger on AZ Flyways so I replaced it with the extra hanger and nut I carry in my pack.

Perhaps, besides your 12 matched bd quickdraws, 60M rope, iphone, belay specs, and grigri II, you throw in:
1-6 inch adjustable wrench or a combination wrench 1/2 and 9/16ths size as well as a stainless hanger and 3/8ths inch nut.

total cost to you is about 7 dollars if you hit the used tool store and your local hardware store. Hanger is about 4 at the climbing shop.

You climb all the time for free so pitch in! Anyone in Tucson who needs help building their own kit should contact me.

I may be cranky but I can be very helpful.

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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Mar 23, 2014
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.
Skip the nut unless it is one specifically from the same type of bolt you may be replacing. No random hardware store nut please or mixing metals or standard on metric.

I would add; study up on bolts so you can recognize the various types and are familiar with the required torque etc. It is not rocket science, but you do need to know what you are doing. If you are unable to learn, then at least pitch in some bills to those who have the skills and equipment so they can afford to replace stuff for the community. You probably won't go too wrong lightly snugging up a nut with a small wrench though.

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By CJC
Mar 23, 2014
Eric I appreciate the sentiment but really hope the people pitching in actually know what they're doing. Turning the masses loose with wrenches and such might seem like the solution but what happens when willingness outpaces ability and knowledge?

Yes maintain your crag IF you know what you're doing.

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By Em Cos
From Boulder, CO
Mar 23, 2014
Every time I've seen someone post anything along the lines of wanting to go out and learn about or help with hardware, the typical responses include something like "if you don't already know how to do it you shouldn't even be asking". So is it the responsibility of a select group initiated only by proper mentorship, or everyone's responsibility? It can't be both ways.

I assume if someone has the proper knowledge, skills, and tools on hand to fix a problem in situ, they have already done it and are not posting about it later. In the absence of those skills and tools, surely the next best thing is at least passing on the information the best way they can.

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By NickinCO
From colorado
Mar 23, 2014
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.
Em Cos wrote:
Every time I've seen someone post anything along the lines of wanting to go out and learn about or help with hardware, the typical responses include something like "if you don't already know how to do it you shouldn't even be asking". So is it the responsibility of a select group initiated only by proper mentorship, or everyone's responsibility? It can't be both ways. I assume if someone has the proper knowledge, skills, and tools on hand to fix a problem in situ, they have already done it and are not posting about it later. In the absence of those skills and tools, surely the next best thing is at least passing on the information the best way they can.



I love it! 100000% agree. Who would dare post here asking how to do it? They'll be flamed off the site.

and tightening a loose bolt is not rocket science... no matter how much some of you want to feel important as "route setters".

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By Brian Scoggins
From Eugene, OR
Mar 23, 2014
It ain't rocket science, but I've snapped enough bolts on the ground from over-tightening to know that it takes some experience to tighten a bolt more than hand-tight without over-torquing.

Feel free to hand-tighten nuts. Feel free to post up on here about missing hangers, or loose hardware, or anything else. Feel free to ask for help in determining whether or not you know what you're doing. But don't pack a wrench, a set of hangers, and some nuts if you don't know enough not to compromise the anchor.

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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 23, 2014
Toofast
1Eric Rhicard wrote:
Anyone in Tucson who needs help building their own kit should contact me. I may be cranky but I can be very helpful.


A person who gets their gear and basic instruction from Eric will be well prepared.

This is a good idea Eric. I have extra stuff and will be glad to help folks build their kits too.

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By 1Eric Rhicard
Mar 23, 2014
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
It isn't rocket science. If you get an 8 inch wrench and snug a nut down by hand then add 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn it will be fine. As I said, I am willing to help people set up for this.

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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 23, 2014
Toofast
I can draw diagrams for anyone who has problems with fractions.

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By Jimbo
Mar 24, 2014
EM COS: I agree. Better to post about a safety issue than not to post, whether you were able to fix the problem or not. Knowledge is always good.
Eric's point is valid however. Anybody who wants to come up to Eric or me or Geir for a quick tutorial should feel free to do so. We would love to have several more active stewards maintaining the routes on The Lemmon.

NicinCO: spoken like a true bottom feeder.
The fact that we like to do new routes does not make us feel "important", nor is it the reason we do new routes in the first place. It's more of an incurable disease really.
Sounds to me like your reacting to your own inadequacies.
If those of us that do new routes are upsetting you so much, please by all means start doing your own routes and show us all the proper ethos we should project to other climbers.

Geir: What's a fraction??

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By NickinCO
From colorado
Mar 24, 2014
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.
bottom feeder, nice...

I would argue I give back to the community quite a bit more than you, even if it isn't necessarily the climbing community so please spare me.

If you look around here a bit you'll see my comment was 100% accurate. People are chastised for mentioning anything to do with a bolt or drill with a question mark on the end of it. You're tellling me ego plays no part in that with anyone? You must live in a cave with blinders on to the world. Proper ethos? How about not being a dickhead when someone asks an innocent question or makes an observational statement. "insert personal attack here"

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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Mar 24, 2014
Ooops...
I don't bother posting anymore about nuts I've already tightened, Loctited,etc.. (in the last few months, 4 or 5 at Ireland, a couple on Ecstatic Electricity, one on Poplar, etc, those are the ones I remember..)

I've lost "friends" over this already, but regardless of the flak I know I'll eventually get on MP and in real life, I do post about the ones where I didn't have a wrench or have doubts about some other aspect of the bolt, because it's a safety issue and I'd feel pretty crappy if somebody got hurt just because I didn't want to deal with some FA defensiveness.

I have a whole list of excuses for why I didn't have a wrench Saturday and I couldn't even hoof it back to the car to get one like I did last time because I didn't drive up. I'll get to it next time I'm up there.

PS. Something I remember Baker posting about: it's worth it to to pay a little extra for an offset (1/2 by 9/16) wrench so you're not scraping your knuckles all the time.

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By Jason Halladay
Administrator
From Los Alamos, NM
Mar 24, 2014
Climbing at the Belvedere crag near Nago with a great view of the northern end of Lake Garda and the town of Torbole sul Garda below. June 2013.
1Eric Rhicard wrote:
Tired posts about loose nuts/spinning hangers, hanger missing blah blah blah. These usually come from people who spend their weekends out there climbing. You are out there start helping maintain it. I would love to see a post like this. Found a loose hanger on Nang so I took my wrench back up the climb and tightened it back down. Or, missing hanger on AZ Flyways so I replaced it with the extra hanger and nut I carry in my pack. Perhaps, besides your 12 matched bd quickdraws, 60M rope, iphone, belay specs, and grigri II, you throw in: 1-6 inch adjustable wrench or a combination wrench 1/2 and 9/16ths size as well as a stainless hanger and 3/8ths inch nut. total cost to you is about 7 dollars if you hit the used tool store and your local hardware store. Hanger is about 4 at the climbing shop. You climb all the time for free so pitch in! Anyone in Tucson who needs help building their own kit should contact me. I may be cranky but I can be very helpful.

Hear, hear! And perhaps add to the kit/backpack a small brush so you can clean the route a bit more because "the FA party should have cleaned it more" and a few good biners (steel is best) because "one carabiner on the anchors is looking pretty worn and should be replaced." Spray paint the biners ahead of time with primer paint to make them less visually annoying and less enticing to would-be biner thieves.

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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Mar 24, 2014
Bucky
Since there are some folks posting here that I know have quite a bit of experience, let me pose a quick question that has been floating around in my head for a while.

As mentioned by Eric, hand tightening with a 8 inch box wrench is probably just fine because it is difficult (though clearly not impossible) to generate enough torque with the short wrench to break the head. That said, I tighten my bolts with a torque wrench so that I can try and get the torque closer to spec for different bolt types. That got me to thinking about the following though. The torque wrench that I own is the classic needle type with a ~1.5 foot shaft. Clearly a shaft this long allows the user to very easily generate way more than enough torque to snap a bolt head without too much trouble. Moreover, there is clearly some error when you torque the nut down and read off the torque measurement from the needle (this is particularly true during times when you are awkwardly hanging in your aiders etc.). Thus my question is, how much additional torque is required to really start compromising the strength of the bolt?

For example, if the manufacturer torque spec is 25 ft-lbs, then how much wiggle room do you have before you start compromising the strength of the bolt? The reason its important is because if its an additional 20 ft-lbs over spec, then no big deal because you are likely outside the range of user error. If the the tolerance is smaller however, say 5 ft-lbs, then you are way closer to the user error bounds.

Anyone have any ideas? Mr. Scoggins, you sound like you have snapped some bolts....did you do it with a torque wrench? Any ideas on the magnitude of ft-lbs you exceeded the bolt spec by?

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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Mar 24, 2014
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.
Max torque for a 3/8 SS Power-Bolt is only 12 ft-lbs. It is pretty easy to go over that even with an 8" wrench, particularly as climbers who are used to holding their whole body weight on one small hold. It is 25 for the 1/2" SS version.

I didn't see any tolerance range listed on their spec sheet.

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By thomas ellis
From abq
Mar 24, 2014
Mint jullop
I second Jason's response about brushes and a general cleaning kit. Nothing like spending loads of time bolting and cleaning new lines to have folks hot on your heals complain about some dirty holds. As one of my partners is always saying "a little appreciation would go a long way".
As a funny side note: We were bolting the other day and were asked by a passing climber "who funds this?" We just laughed. Nice guy.

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By Robbie Mackley
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 24, 2014
Me and Holden at the "Matterhorn"
I used to carry a 1/2-9/16 clipped to my pack until some clown swiped it while I was climbing. Never thought of carrying a nut and hanger though. Thanks for the tip.

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By NickinCO
From colorado
Mar 24, 2014
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.
J. Albers wrote:
Since there are some folks posting here that I know have quite a bit of experience, let me pose a quick question that has been floating around in my head for a while. As mentioned by Eric, hand tightening with a 8 inch box wrench is probably just fine because it is difficult (though clearly not impossible) to generate enough torque with the short wrench to break the head. That said, I tighten my bolts with a torque wrench so that I can try and get the torque closer to spec for different bolt types. That got me to thinking about the following though. The torque wrench that I own is the classic needle type with a ~1.5 foot shaft. Clearly a shaft this long allows the user to very easily generate way more than enough torque to snap a bolt head without too much trouble. Moreover, there is clearly some error when you torque the nut down and read off the torque measurement from the needle (this is particularly true during times when you are awkwardly hanging in your aiders etc.). Thus my question is, how much additional torque is required to really start compromising the strength of the bolt? For example, if the manufacturer torque spec is 25 ft-lbs, then how much wiggle room do you have before you start compromising the strength of the bolt? The reason its important is because if its an additional 20 ft-lbs over spec, then no big deal because you are likely outside the range of user error. If the the tolerance is smaller however, say 5 ft-lbs, then you are way closer to the user error bounds. Anyone have any ideas? Mr. Scoggins, you sound like you have snapped some bolts....did you do it with a torque wrench? Any ideas on the magnitude of ft-lbs you exceeded the bolt spec by?


I think the click type wrenches are more accurate. I believe mine is accurate to less than 1% and I got my cheap 1/4" drive at harbor freight for like $40. It's small enough if you wanted to you could throw it in a pack.

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By 1Eric Rhicard
Mar 24, 2014
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
ThatsTerrible Christian. No reason to lose friends. I should have included all the folks who feel they should tell me about some loose this or missing that. My goal was to nudge foljs to do what you are already doing. Thanks for stepping up.

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By 1Eric Rhicard
Mar 25, 2014
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
Google it. I think most of us can go online and figure this out. Or better yet contact someone and ask them to teach you. I see a short seminar in my future. Perhaps at a SACC Meeting. Hmmmm.

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By Brian Scoggins
From Eugene, OR
Mar 25, 2014
J. Albers wrote:
Mr. Scoggins, you sound like you have snapped some bolts....did you do it with a torque wrench? Any ideas on the magnitude of ft-lbs you exceeded the bolt spec by?

No idea. I was trying to remove my air filter, and I either encountered substandard bolts, or vastly exceeded their torque rating. I've deliberately done the same whilst route-setting in a gym, but that's because we couldn't get the bolt cutters on the shaft to deal with a bad t-nut.

Don't get me wrong, spending some time practicing with a torque wrench and a regular wrench to get a feel for what is right is pretty easy. Its just that I don't want random dudes cranking things down to the point that the gear isn't safe, and thinking that it is.

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By Scott O
From California
Mar 25, 2014
Batman Pinnacle
I don't want anyone who is not absolutely knowledgable about what they are doing messing with bolts at the crag. If someone isn't completely certain what to do, they should just report it to the community at large.

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By Anna Nelson Dittrich
From Tucson, AZ
Mar 25, 2014
At the Ring of Steall hike, Scotland
1Eric Rhicard wrote:
Google it. I think most of us can go online and figure this out. Or better yet contact someone and ask them to teach you. I see a short seminar in my future. Perhaps at a SACC Meeting. Hmmmm.


A seminar at a SACC meeting would be really great! I bet many people would be interested in hearing how they could contribute to maintaining their favorite climbing areas -- I would definitely love to help out on routes when I see something I could fix.

Of course telling people that we need to carry a wrench (which I will start doing soon!) doesn't require a seminar, but I bet fewer people feel confident in selecting replacements for old/worn/missing equipment. It would be so helpful to hear specifics about what hardware you think we should be using, and maybe if you have favorite places to buy it.

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By Williampenner
From The 505
Mar 25, 2014
Beaver Mountain
Jason Halladay wrote:
Hear, hear! And perhaps add to the kit/backpack a small brush so you can clean the route a bit more because "the FA party should have cleaned it more" and a few good biners (steel is best) because "one carabiner on the anchors is looking pretty worn and should be replaced." Spray paint the biners ahead of time with primer paint to make them less visually annoying and less enticing to would-be biner thieves.



thomas ellis wrote:
I second Jason's response about brushes and a general cleaning kit. Nothing like spending loads of time bolting and cleaning new lines to have folks hot on your heels complain about some dirty holds. As one of my partners is always saying "a little appreciation would go a long way". As a funny side note: We were bolting the other day and were asked by a passing climber "who funds this?" We just laughed. Nice guy.


I second both Jason and Tom that folks could do a great service by helping clean a dirty hold or replace worn anchor components. Carrying a new (preferably camouflaged) biner in your pack to replace a worn-out one doesn't require technical knowledge so almost everyone can do it.

It does seem that a lot of people don't want to put in that bit of extra effort to act as caretakers for their areas. How can you otherwise explain crappy anchors that would be fine if you just swapped out biners or replaced camouflaged 3/8" chain. If you lack the skills to do it, I bet you know someone who has those skills, so give them the new gear or some money to get the replacements.

Or just complain about it and see how that helps the situation at your climbing area.

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By jefe
Mar 25, 2014
Geir wrote:
I can draw diagrams for anyone who has problems with fractions.


We may need these after all.
Will I have to register on your website to see them?


How most people can contribute best is by picking up trash and maybe replacing leaver biners.

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By 1Eric Rhicard
Mar 25, 2014
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
Brian Scoggins wrote:
Don't get me wrong, spending some time practicing with a torque wrench and a regular wrench to get a feel for what is right is pretty easy. Its just that I don't want random dudes cranking things down to the point that the gear isn't safe, and thinking that it is.


Just for the record I have never used a torque wrench and never ever twisted off a bolt in over 35 years of placing bolts. I have never heard of a bolt that had a wrench used to tighten it fail in Southern AZ.

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