Svengali 

Wild. Big moves between sort of rotting flakes in the roof with very hard feet. Hooks just above the roof are small, and feet are nearly nothing there. Prepare to be sore after even one good go.

Has anyone ever climbed these mixed routes in the summer in rock shoes and bare hands?? Just curious as to how hard they would be without ice gear. Perhaps this route is 5.15!

No, not yet, but I tell you some of those mixed lines have holds that would be almost impossible to hold onto with bare hands- very small. if you want we can go there (Vail) together to find out as I am very curious now.

Who is this anyway? I think I know who...mixed climbings grades can't at all be compared to rock route grades they are just way to different. Although it would be nice to compare M grades to 5.grades by climbing confirmed graded rock routes with tools and crampons but people wouldn't go for that and it doesn't make sense why compare they are dif. sports. Just cause' an M grade is at the high end scale 'say M10' doesn't mean that it is can be compared to a 5.15. That only states that it is 3 grades harder than say an M7. In M grading we don't do M10b or 10c etc. we just go from number to number and it's open ended with bone freezing coldness.