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Stunt planes in Black Velvet

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Sherri Lewis · · Sequim, WA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 316

Has anyone else been treated to a show by the stunt planes zipping through Black Velvet canyon recently? We also watched them doing loop-the-loops while we were climbing at Windy Peak. Seems like they are becoming a regular visitor out there in the otherwise quiet canyons. Oh, Vegas.

skycombatace.com/experience…

Jon Nelson · · Redmond, WA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 8,196

I haven't been there, so no. But geez Sherri, that sounds really irritating.

Maybe you could post up an address for people to send in their comments on these undesired "treats". If a large number of complaints come in quickly, then maybe it will be more likely that they stop.

Very intriguing forum post title. Five stars.

vietgoeswest · · Portland · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 100

April 7 in the afternoon. Not one but two. I'm not usually a complainer but found it annoying as hell!

Karsten Duncan · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 2,571

Yes, I saw them flying in and out of several of the canyons on multiple days back in late March.

While kind of neat for some and annoying for others it seems they may be in violation of FAA low flying FAA Low Flying regulations.

(c) ·Over other than congested areas.
An altitude of 500 feet above the surface except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In
that case, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or
structure.

It seems that flying in the canyons would be in violation of the above section of regulations. The website linked above also tells you how to report aircraft for investigation. They want specifics of time, place, plane identification, and if others also saw the activity.

W L · · NEVADASTAN · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 851

Have seen them out there multiple times this spring...they also just had a fatal crash South of town as well (same outfit).

A buddy of mine got some cell phone video of their antics while we were out there. Apparently their whole gig is "simulated air-to-air-combat" for bachelor parties and the like.

Between these guys and the clowns in helicopters flying through Calico Basin every 15 minutes, it's getting a bit ridiculous.

Dow Williams · · St. George, Utah; Canmore, AB · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 240

Sherri, Casey and I were at the optimum height on Epi last month when we saw a full on dive and roll. I have flown a little. Regardless of how rebellious some might think it is or isn't, damn impressive flying.

Brandt Allen · · Joshua Tree, Cal · Joined Jan 2004 · Points: 210

Gotta agree with Dow. We saw three of them from the top of Brownstone Wall at the end of March, diving and rolling and looping all around the canyon behind Brownstone. One of them flew through the Gunsight notch, then turned and headed straight for Rainbow Wall. At the last second he headed straight up and over the wall. Very entertaining!

fossana · · leeds, ut · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 13,318

There was a piece on aircraft noise on the NV public radio site in relation to the helicopter tours. tl;dr BLM tells people to forward complaints to the FAA and the FAA only has voluntary guidelines:

However, the FAA in 2004 issued voluntary guidelines for flights in noise-sensitive areas ranging from residential areas to wildlife refuges. Pilots are asked to avoid such places, if practical, and, if not, to “make every effort to fly not less than 2,000 feet above ground level.”

The NPS has flight bans in place, but conservation areas are not in scope.

Karsten, it would likely be argued that RR constitutes a sparsely populated area.

Simon W · · Nowhere Land · Joined May 2013 · Points: 55

All of those guys are in violation of 91.13 at the very least but it would take an inspector that wants to bust them to do anything about it.

Imo if you want to dive bomb a pile of rocks go do one that isn't a famous tourist attraction.

Gavin Bridgeman · · California · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 2,295

Yes, and they are dam good pilots! Sweet show!

Sherri Lewis · · Sequim, WA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 316

The flying is definitely impressive, but it is also quite distracting when you are climbing and disconcerting when they are flying straight towards you before quickly banking their turn. Even a small miscalculation on the pilot's part is endangering anyone in the vicinity.

We've seen them at least four or five times this spring while climbing in Black Velvet and then yesterday at Windy Peak. It's starting to feel like a regular occurence.

Good to know there may be some sort of violation occuring with this that maybe the activity could be reigned in.

Karsten -- they were definitely within 500ft of us the one day they came while we were at the belay a pitch or two up on Bourbon Street. We were all a little rattled by how close they came before banking. I'll check into the link about reporting for investigation.

Larry DeAngelo · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Nov 2002 · Points: 5,285

The FAA is a bit more restrictive than the 500 foot distance would suggest. A key element for interpretation is Advisory Circular 91-36 regarding flight over noise-sensitive areas. It recommends 2000 feet above terrain, and although this is a voluntary distance, the circular contains the definition:

"For the purpose of this AC, the ground level of noise-sensitive areas is defined to include the highest terrain within 2,000 feet AGL laterally of the route of flight, or the uppermost rim of a canyon or valley."

Using that definition, it would appear that even if 2,000 feet is voluntary, there is a regulatory requirement to fly at least 500 feet above the tops of the ridges. It may take a lawyer or very serious bureaucrat to know for sure, but it seems like a good case could be made.

Direct link to the AC:
faa.gov/documentLibrary/med…

Patrick Reed · · Las Vegas · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 0

My partner and I saw these guys flying in between the Rose Tower and Jack Rabbit Buttress back around Feb or Apr. Cool looking, although it makes things scary and dangerous. My partner pulled rope through my atc because I couldn't hear him shout "off belay." Don't mind the cool stunts and planes, just go some place that's not above climbing.

Doug Foust · · Oroville, WA · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 165

Don't think they will be out there anymore:

reviewjournal.com/news/las-…

Sherri Lewis · · Sequim, WA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 316
Doug Foust wrote:Don't think they will be out there anymore: reviewjournal.com/news/las-…
I don't think they've ceased operations -- we saw them flying loop-the-loops adjacent to Windy Peak on May 9. (The accident referenced in the article happened on Apr. 30.)
Dow Williams · · St. George, Utah; Canmore, AB · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 240

We were at the summit of Tiers of the Rising Sun 2 days ago and a single prop red stunt plane did his thing. Battle simulation sweeping right over us. I have no problem with it though. I have zero expectations regarding privacy/pristine nature if in Vegas or Red Rock NCA. Just a free show. Admired the skill and guts.

Adventure Chumps · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 20
Dow Williams wrote:We were at the summit of Tiers of the Rising Sun 2 days ago and a single prop red stunt plane did his thing. Battle simulation sweeping right over us. I have no problem with it though. I have zero expectations regarding privacy/pristine nature if in Vegas or Red Rock NCA. Just a free show. Admired the skill and guts.
What kind of logic is that? Just because it's near Vegas, it's ok to go whizzing through the wilderness areas? I bet if planes were flying through Zion or the Valley, people would be all up in arms.

It's lowbrow logic like this that didn't stop the helicopters from infiltrating the park. You sound like one of the BLM drones, "the FAA controls the airspace, can't do anything about it". It started off as 1 tour company, now there are 2 and who knows how many more on the way.

Perhaps instead of just admiring it, we should all be writing letters to the FAA. Personally, I think it's a terrible precedent to be setting.
John Hegyes · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Feb 2002 · Points: 5,676
Adventure Chumps wrote: What kind of logic is that? Just because it's near Vegas, it's ok to go whizzing through the wilderness areas? I bet if planes were flying through Zion or the Valley, people would be all up in arms. It's lowbrow logic like this that didn't stop the helicopters from infiltrating the park. You sound like one of the BLM drones, "the FAA controls the airspace, can't do anything about it". It started off as 1 tour company, now there are 2 and who knows how many more on the way. Perhaps instead of just admiring it, we should all be writing letters to the FAA. Personally, I think it's a terrible precedent to be setting.
Exactly right. The tourist helicopters and stunt planes need to be stopped. I don't see how these companies can operate in wilderness areas.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
John Hegyes wrote: Exactly right. The tourist helicopters and stunt planes need to be stopped. I don't see how these companies can operate in wilderness areas.
So no more helicopters for skiing or planes to the Alaska range? How bout a solution that works for both user groups. Nobody's the center of the universe no matter how much granola they eat or how much money they have.
Tylerpratt · · Litchfield, Connecticut · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 40
Bill Kirby wrote: So no more helicopters for skiing or planes to the Alaska range? How bout a solution that works for both user groups. Nobody's the center of the universe no matter how much granola they eat or how much money they have.
Wow dude! I agree with you. Never thought that shit would happen.
Altered Ego · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 0

How about a solution that works for the planet? Turns out humans aren't the center of the universe either, no matter how clueless they are.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Nevada
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