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Strong bolts don't always make good anchors!!
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By ChefMattThaner
From Lakewood, co
Nov 11, 2013
ducking ropes at Copper
Allen Sanderson wrote:
While I agree the set up is not correct why are you lowering off the anchor rings in the first place? if you want to lower off set yer own draws. Otherwise you should only be using the rings to rap from the anchors (which will still twist the rope but not as bad).



+1 why are you not rapping off fixed gear?

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By nicelegs
From Denver
Nov 11, 2013
ChefMattThaner wrote:
+1 why are you not rapping off fixed gear?


Does this look like the beginner forum to you?

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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Nov 11, 2013
Bucky
nicelegs wrote:
Your mother is a whore


Awesome. I had a sh*tty day and that made me grin.

nicelegs wrote:
Does this look like the beginner forum to you?


Grinning again....

ChefMattThaner wrote:
+1 why are you not rapping off fixed gear?


Why are you still living in 1982? Threading and lowering off of a sport anchor is about as common as a moron at a Rick Perry rally. I will scold like a crotchety old guy when I see people TR'ing off of fixed gear instead of their own draws, but lowering? Pfft. Whatever, that is how the world of sport works nowadays.

Joe Stark wrote:
Eastern Iowa has a LOT of limestone. More than the few public sport crags and state parks put together. Way more than people that even live here realize.


Glad to hear that there is more to climb than the "dirty pockets after rain" Wild Iowa that I knew!!

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By rocknice2
From Montreal, Quebec
Nov 11, 2013
BD Fuel
I see this all the time, two fixe ring anchors side by side. Old school thinking if you ask me. Not only does this setup twist the rope during lowering [ not recommend ] but also twists a rope when pulling after a rappel.
Proper set up is to stagger the anchors vertically. Is better for multi pitching and as a rap anchor. OK it's a slight hassle for setting a TR with QD's but still possible by using different length draws or doubling up on one side. This anchor makes it possible to tie in without the need for any cordelette or sling. Just need two locking biners.
Before someone comments about only being on a single bolt on rappel, you're not. The second bolt is less than a foot away.

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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Nov 11, 2013
ChefMattThaner wrote:
+1 why are you not rapping off fixed gear?


Virtually every modern sport anchor for anything harder than 5.11c/d is fixed with some kind of lowering- mussys, carabiners, etc.

The only reason I like mussy hooks more than a steel carabiner is the amount of steel in the basket- they last a long damn time on high traffic routes. That said, the Fixe Dracos are nice- and I hear the ASCA is starting to use them instead of the mussys for anchor replacement!

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By ChefMattThaner
From Lakewood, co
Nov 11, 2013
ducking ropes at Copper
John Wilder wrote:
Virtually every modern sport anchor for anything harder than 5.11c/d is fixed with some kind of lowering- mussys, carabiners, etc. The only reason I like mussy hooks more than a steel carabiner is the amount of steel in the basket- they last a long damn time on high traffic routes. That said, the Fixe Dracos are nice- and I hear the ASCA is starting to use them instead of the mussys for anchor replacement!



I would agree that lowering off specifically designed lowering gear such as mussys is more understandable but i think nicelegs was specifically asking about rap rings.

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By ChefMattThaner
From Lakewood, co
Nov 11, 2013
ducking ropes at Copper
Nicelegs this wouldn't be a problem if you were using the proper method of rapping down instead of being lowered. Stop being lazy either put up your own draws, rap down like you have a pair, or stop bitching about a twisted rope that could be avoided very easily by several different methods.

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By nicelegs
From Denver
Nov 11, 2013
ChefMattThaner wrote:
Nicelegs this wouldn't be a problem if you were using the proper method of rapping down instead of being lowered. Stop being lazy either put up your own draws, rap down like you have a pair, or stop bitching about a twisted rope that could be avoided very easily by several different methods.


This aint the kitchen cookie, yer out of your element.

New member of the Front Range 5.7 Mafia?

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By Chad Volk
From Boulder, CO
Nov 11, 2013
Nicelegs - what climb in BoCan or Clear Creek finally pushed you over the edge into the Mountain Project forum abyss?

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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Nov 11, 2013
Bucky
ChefMattThaner wrote:
Nicelegs this wouldn't be a problem if you were using the proper method of rapping down instead of being lowered. Stop being lazy either put up your own draws, rap down like you have a pair, or stop bitching about a twisted rope that could be avoided very easily by several different methods.


Since you have apparently missed the last three posts pointing out that your "correct" methods are from 1975, let me give you a diagram. The following was drawn by Paul Piana and inserted into his mid 1990's Wild Iris guidebook. Sort of funny how a developer would put instructions for how to thread a rap anchor so that the climber can lower, huh?

threading
threading

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By Ed Wright
Nov 11, 2013
Magic Ed
Here in the Potrero Chico it took us a while to learn this, so many older anchors are placed horizontally but we no longer do it that way. We've gone back and fixed many of the older anchors but not all of them yet. You'll prolly find the same to be true at many other climbing venues.

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By Ed Wright
Nov 11, 2013
Magic Ed
ChefMattThaner wrote:
Nicelegs this wouldn't be a problem if you were using the proper method of rapping down instead of being lowered. Stop being lazy either put up your own draws, rap down like you have a pair, or stop bitching about a twisted rope that could be avoided very easily by several different methods.


The rope will get twisted just from pulling your rope after you rap off with this kind of anchor.

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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Nov 11, 2013
ChefMattThaner wrote:
Nicelegs this wouldn't be a problem if you were using the proper method of rapping down instead of being lowered. Stop being lazy either put up your own draws, rap down like you have a pair, or stop bitching about a twisted rope that could be avoided very easily by several different methods.


the proper method is whatever is safest for cleaning the draws. on anything mildly overhanging, the best method is to lower and clean.

many route developers are either cheap, lazy, or not thinking ahead when installing anchors. I see great pro bolt installation and crap anchors on top all the time. one example is what nicelegs posted in his original post.

if you're developing a sport cliff, the anchors should all have lower offs if the routes overhang.


rappelling off fixed gear is a noble idea, but in practice it doesn't make sense in many cases. which is why installing anchors for lowering off is so important. especially for future maintenance.

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By The Farley
Nov 12, 2013
Out In NV. Photo by D. Salazar
+1 for mussy hooks all day.

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By Brian Scoggins
From Eugene, OR
Nov 12, 2013
1) I think that fsh-excuse me- *nicelegs* is using "lower-off" in the broader sense to mean "descend from" as opposed to the specific "have my belayer lower me", because he's right. After a day of cragging at someplace that has all side-by-side fixe rings, even if I carefully rappel after each one, my rope is super-fucked and I have to spend like an hour of valuable beer-drinking time untwisting the thing.

2) The one-above-the-other configuration that Fixe recommends and all the euros use is actually really lousy for having your belayer lower you. It really sucks for that usage, so ultimately, a-excuse me- *nicelegs* is arguing for a configuration that really only works when you're rappelling anyway.

3) I think "Joe, you live in Iowa, your point is invalid." is just about the funniest thing I've seen on here in a good long while. Keep up the good work!

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By Jim Titt
From Germany
Nov 12, 2013
Brian Scoggins wrote:
The one-above-the-other configuration that Fixe recommends and all the euros use is actually really lousy for having your belayer lower you. It really sucks for that usage, so ultimately, a-excuse me- *nicelegs* is arguing for a configuration that really only works when you're rappelling anyway.


Guess we´ve a different skill-set over here in Europe, seems to work for us.
If you only fit one anchor the whole debate is pointless anyway!

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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Nov 12, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after...
Brian Scoggins wrote:
1) I think that fsh-excuse me- *nicelegs* is using "lower-off" in the broader sense to mean "descend from"


No. He's not.

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By Miike
From MA/CT border
Nov 12, 2013
my foot
Brian Scoggins wrote:
1) 2) The one-above-the-other configuration that Fixe recommends and all the euros use is actually really lousy for having your belayer lower you. It really sucks for that usage, so ultimately, a-excuse me- *nicelegs* is arguing for a configuration that really only works when you're rappelling anyway.


how about a reason besides "really lousy" and "it sucks", I have only used a few but they seem to work fine for me.

I personally like the idea of only buying one piece of chain instead of two, especially the SS

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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Nov 12, 2013
Stabby
Brian Scoggins wrote:
2) The one-above-the-other configuration that Fixe recommends and all the euros use is actually really lousy for having your belayer lower you. It really sucks for that usage, so ultimately, a-excuse me- *nicelegs* is arguing for a configuration that really only works when you're rappelling anyway.

That's not my experience at all. If you look at the ones in the picture I posted, the 2 are equalized and when loaded are at a common point. Lower offs are smooth and we don't have the twisting issues.
And lowering off is the sport climbers preferred method; not rapping or descending or whatever misconstruction of what John is actually saying you guys keep coming up with. Whenever I see a guy insisting on rapping every sport route I also expect to find a PAS on his harness and a strong deference for an ATC over a GriGri.
This will probably freak most of you out, but you really don't need 2 anchors anyway. One is enough. We like seeing 2 anchors because we maintain the redundancy concept from trad over to sport. So if the lowering station cannot be set up with 2 anchors at a single point, then the next best configuration is to have one take the load and the other serve as a back-up only.
As for twisted ropes, with my circle of friends the biggest cause for it is doing the alpine-style rope coil all the time. My cord is 4-5 years old and is 95% of the time just flaked into a bag, has no coils. Best friend does the 1920's coil thing and his cord is a frikkin pretzel.
Mussy's have a significant negative factor to consider in that they are quite a bit more visually intrusive than chains. And you can get them from Home Depot too, which seems to sell an 'imitation of the real thing' with everything else they have in that store. I have had so much of their shit fall apart and break on me in my daily business that in no way would I ever buy something there to fully trust my life to. It s a phobia of mine, Ace and Lowes are ok for some reason.

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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Nov 12, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after...
Brian Scoggins wrote:
1) *nicelegs* is arguing for a configuration that really only works when you're rappelling anyway.


This has not been my experience either. The chain side allows a lot of movement and therefore doesn't force the rope to move a particular way. It bears weight, but because it's free to move with the rope, it doesn't force the rope to twist. Also, because of the freedom of movement of the chain, when loaded, it ends up being side by side with the ring, touching, so that the rope is essentially moving through one redundant point instead of two, which prevents twisting as well.

Almost every anchor in the NRG is set up with horizontal rings, and it twists my ropes whether rapping or lowering. However, I don't have much room to bitch because A) I'm glad there's something there, and B) I don't put up routes or anchors, although I do give to NRAC.

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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Nov 12, 2013
Stabby
Boissal wrote:
Was that crag bolted with a 4' ruler to determine bolt spacing? I'd be more worried of z-clipping than at the gym...

Awesome, isn't it?
Actually, Mike is over 10 feet tall so its an optical illusion.

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By ChefMattThaner
From Lakewood, co
Nov 12, 2013
ducking ropes at Copper
John Wilder wrote:
the proper method is whatever is safest for cleaning the draws. on anything mildly overhanging, the best method is to lower and clean. many route developers are either cheap, lazy, or not thinking ahead when installing anchors. I see great pro bolt installation and crap anchors on top all the time. one example is what nicelegs posted in his original post. if you're developing a sport cliff, the anchors should all have lower offs if the routes overhang. rappelling off fixed gear is a noble idea, but in practice it doesn't make sense in many cases. which is why installing anchors for lowering off is so important. especially for future maintenance.


Well call me old school then I guess. I have no issue with rappelling down and cleaning my draws as I go. Unless its ridiculously overhung I have no problem taking an 60 seconds to clean my draws on rap. I personally have replaced far too many worn top anchors in my short rigging career. I wouldn't have asuch of an issue with perfectly competent climbers forgoing this process if more of them also would pony up and do some of the work. Not that you or nivelegs don't already contribute this way just in general.

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By Mike McKinnon
From Golden, CO
Nov 12, 2013
Bunny pancake
Allen Sanderson wrote:
While I agree the set up is not correct why are you lowering off the anchor rings in the first place? if you want to lower off set yer own draws. Otherwise you should only be using the rings to rap from the anchors (which will still twist the rope but not as bad).


grabs some popcorn...

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By ChefMattThaner
From Lakewood, co
Nov 12, 2013
ducking ropes at Copper
nicelegs wrote:
This aint the kitchen cookie, yer out of your element. New member of the Front Range 5.7 Mafia?



Hell yeah, everyone knows anything worth climbing is 5.7 or lower, duh!

Besides I need something with belay ledges big enough for my propane fired Wok and at least two butcher block tables if you want anything of michelin star quality out of me.

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By Buff Johnson
Nov 12, 2013
smiley face
grabs the corn, and a mocha



Iowa....doh!

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