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Stolen gear @ The Pit.....AGAIN!!!
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By Musashi
Jul 8, 2010

Several people's gear was, yet again, Stolen off of "The Joker", and "Total Recall". The Joker had permanent gear, chain draws, and Total Recall had regular draws. The routes were stripped sometime Monday or Tuesday, July 5 or 6.
The draws were taken about a year ago as well, with the same M.O., leaving the middle 3 on Total Recall. It was definately someone who knows the area and possibly the same person.
If anyone has any info as to who did this, PLEASE, left me know. Or at least convince then to return the gear to the gym, Vertical Relief.


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By Ian F.
From Phx
Jul 8, 2010

We all know where this is going to go. And sorry, I will be the first. Don't leave them hanging. Sorry you lost your gear, but I have never seen any draws hanging before, and see no reason have them now. Of course if it was overnight, or during a weekend there, I could see leaving your draws up. But then you would also most likely be there each day using them. Leaving them for a long period of time is not an ethic NAZ should get into. There was no need in the past, thus no need now.

Hopefully someone was just making a point and you will get your gear back, but don't make a practice of this. People don't want to see it.


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By manuel rangel
From Tempe, Arizona
Jul 8, 2010
Trying to redpoint The Ugly 11c; steeper than it looks and the rock is scary in spots but good enough.

Leaving a route full of draws is asking for trouble around these here parts, it's the law of the west. Where there is no law. At least concerning quick draws! (fun pun)

If you want to keep them on the route, good luck. Too many gumbies and self-appointed do-gooders around. Sorry they were taken as either booty or a statement. Hopefully, they will be returned.


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Jul 8, 2010
Colonel Mustard

Sucks. I believe I saw the hanging draws as late as Sunday, so you're probably right on the time line.

I find that much of Arizona has a self-denying attitude towards sport climbing. It seems that every sport area is derided for doing what sport climbing areas do, and that many people misapply ethical standards from other climbing practices. I'm only a mediocre sport climber myself, but at least I'm not a thief and ignorant of what sport climbing practices are. And, yes, I am aware of the arguments against these tactics, but I think they are mostly argued by those whose inability to apply them results in sour grapes.

That said, gear left out is subject to the prevailing elements. Better luck next time!


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By John Maguire
From Boulder, CO
Jul 8, 2010
Bastille Crack Final Pitch

If your draws were taken, then they must not have been that hard to clean. Laziness has its cost.



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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Jul 8, 2010
Bocan

Stripping permanent gear sucks..and happens way too much, especially at anchors etc. Downright dangerous too!!!

Left draws...nothing I can say that hasn't been said. Sucks, but that's the choice you make.

Sorry to hear that happened, but if its "again" shame on you once, shame on me twice. I would've learned after the first go...hard and expensive lesson fer sure!


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By Ian F.
From Phx
Jul 8, 2010

Zeke Said "Sucks. And, yes, I am aware of the arguments against these tactics, but I think they are mostly argued by those whose inability to apply them results in sour grapes."

Zeke,

What? That is asinine. I have never been able to climb 12+ but that does not mean I playing the "Fox". The routes in question have been around for a long time, and I have never been to the Pit, and seen any draws hanging. Why would it be okay now?


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By md3
Jul 8, 2010

The Joker isn't steep enough to justify fixed draws of any type. People have been climbing it for many years without fixed draws. The only ethic that matters is that which minimizes impact and maintains access. Chains are ugly. The idea that its OK because its sport climbing is nonsense. Everyone understands that some difficult to clean routes are established with fixed draws, but these routes are only slightly overhanging and they did not have any fixed gear until just the last couple of years when the gym people started showing up. The Joker was being sent without fixed draws before some of these gym people were born.


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By Zappatista
Jul 8, 2010
Book me, officer.

Yeah, return the gear to the gym! So...it can be put back up right away again???

I like the comments about "sport climbing tactics" being defended as only disagreed with by people who have an "inability to apply them".

Question: is there anyone who doesn't possess the "ability" to be lazy and leave their shit around?

Sour grapes is a favorite expression of mine, and I tip my hat to its usage. I suppose I've got a really sour taste in my mouth from the same status quo bullshit being maintained in my neck of the woods.

Congratulations to the new owners of the gear. No one will ever learn from this experience, but I and others like me appreciate your efforts and support your guerilla resistance to the creeping lassitude of fixed EVERYTHING.


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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Jul 8, 2010
Stabby

I doubt the chain-links were taken by somebody who wants them up elsewhere. What you have is a person who disagrees with the tactics used there and is self-policing. S(he) is guided by ethics, not greed, and you might as well accept that if you leave hanging gear it will get taken down. You know the definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


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By Tim McCabe
Jul 8, 2010

I am sorry but imo Sport climbing is for the lazy.

I can remember the first time I witnessed the everybody leads style of sport climbing. This was is Jtree way back in the early 90's. Three guys show up to do a newly established 3 bolt 5.8. Because it's Josh of course there is no anchor on top so the first guy brings the gear sets the anchor. After lowering off his buds take turns leading what basically amounts to a large boulder problem. In the end they argue over who has to follow and clean the draws plus they still need to get their gear from the anchor and do the easy down climb. In the end the original leader breaks down and retrieves his gear. Fairly lame again it's only my opinion and as I never did lead a 5.12 my opinion probably doesn't count.

When I was learning to climb in the mid 80's I learned that all found gear was booty likewise any gear left behind was considered lost. Now a days I mostly ride mountain bikes and my fellow mtbers have taken a lot of shit over the years for creating illegal trails. IMO climbers have been getting away with murder for years. Climbers routinely create trails to get to climbs scrub lichen and take out plant life. At some point I should think that just loosing draws is nothing compared to the guy who was fined $1000 just for riding a trail that someone else created.

Sorry about being such a jerk and obvious violation of the 1st guideline but every time I see one of these stolen gear so called fixed gear it really gets my goat. No one broke into your house and took your gear, if I didn't bother to load my bike at the end of a ride I wouldn't expect it to be there waiting for me to return in the morning for my next ride.


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Jul 8, 2010
Bucky

Tim McCabe wrote:
I am sorry but imo Sport climbing is for the lazy.


Genius Tim. Go ride your bike.


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By John Maguire
From Boulder, CO
Jul 8, 2010
Bastille Crack Final Pitch

Tim McCabe wrote:
I am sorry but imo Sport climbing is for the lazy.


No. But leaving your shit all over a crag is.


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Jul 8, 2010
Colonel Mustard

I guess I speak for the gym people in disagreeing. Fixed draws or no, The Pit is a gym. Correction: a gym with dogs and beer. You know who notices fixed gear? Climbers do. Leave no trace and minimizing impact is a joke when we chalk the cliffs like there's a flock of birds leaving guano, there are thousands of bolts, access trails, and hordes of people loudly waiting to gang rope the same two warm ups. So, yeah, I guess the status quo of passive aggressive action will prevail at The Pit. It's no skin off my hide either way since my climbs are too vertical, moderate, and I hang my own draws when I project.

So, yes, there are problems with fixed draws. They wear out, etc.. And, yes, it's a convenience. That bothers some. I'm lazy, so when they're on routes I can do, I use them gleefully.

There are other problems with the attitudes I see in sport climbing here, like in rap bolted areas with purposeful run outs, etc., I just notice more in Arizona than I did sport climbing where I started in California. I am just stating my opinion and some of the shortcomings I see, I'll leave it to others to self righteously jack draws from routes.


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By pfwein
Jul 8, 2010

Just out of curiosity:
Who has heard non-climbers (and not counting land managers or the equivalent) complain about fixed draws?


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By md3
Jul 8, 2010

Closures have resulted from non-climbers complaining about fixed gear. There was an issue about it in NC at Grandfather Mt when I was there, and I have heard about other instances, but can't cite them.

More importantly: The Pit is not a gym. Despite the fact that its often too crowded, its a really beautiful little canyon. Sometimes when I get out there in the middle of the week, there are only one or two other parties around. Sometimes when I am really busy, its the only escape into the woods I get all week, and I love just sitting there and enjoying the trees and everything between doing routes. It is not a gym. Unnecessary fixed draws are ugly and just kind of lame given how long people have been doing those routes without them.

Also- if you are wondering, I had nothing to do with removing the gear, but I support it, although I think they should have left the gear at the bottom somewhere. I do appreciate the new anchor chains on the Abyss, regardless of whether they were put there by the same people who put up the fixed draws.


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By Musashi
Jul 8, 2010

So did everybody out there not see "Guideline #1: don't be a jerk"
Lots of reply's, and not a single one helpful. I'm sure its fun for you all to be on your soap box and preach about your special level of ethics, but this is downright steeling. The anchor biners and chain were left behind. As well as several draws in the middle of the route that have been there for several years, and believed to be old and worn out. So all of you high and mighty dimwits that have no idea what the area is, stay out of it. And for any of you who have been there and say that you never saw any draws hanging, then it is time get a new perscription, because there has ALWAYS been draws hanging on routes at The Pit. And there still is today.


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By Musashi
Jul 8, 2010

Oh, and Yes I am the same guy who replaced the anchors on "The Abyss". Maybe I should take those off before they get stolen to!


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By J.J
Jul 8, 2010

Whaa
Whaa


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By Ian F.
From Phx
Jul 8, 2010

I must say that I haven't climbed at the Pit in maybe 2 years. And 10 years ago I was there pretty much every day in between classes. Leaving draws is all new to me. If they were there 10 years ago, I would probably have taken them. I was taught that anything left was booty, so it would have been a huge score. Maybe that is why nothing was there long term then. I witnessed plenty of people hop on it, and I think the only thing I ever saw was a bail biner mid way. Booty, if I could even get to it. So it stayed for the next strong man. Apparently, another strong man came along and took all your bail gear.


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Jul 8, 2010
Bocan

what kind of help were you looking for? Do you want the theives pointed out? I mean other than that sucks, don't leave stuff out that you don't want to get stolen..what else can be said?

But this is a public internet forum...everyone will have and is entitled to an opinion regardless of what others think. I don't think anyones been overly nasty.

If my bike got stolen or I left cams up and down a climb what would you say? Too bad, that sucks why did you leave it out?

And as far as the "I'm climb sooo hard, that's why I leave my stuff" out crap...does any pro in ANY other sport leave out the tools of their trade? NO....what makes you 5.13 climbers so fricken special??
Are you saying I can have my stuff stolen being a 5.9 climber, but you can't because you are soooo awesome?

Jeez....people will stop replying to these theads when people stop crying about the gear that was left out and stolen. I mean it sucks, but how many threads have to be started before people get it? THERE ARE THIEVES OUT THERE!!!


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By Musashi
Jul 8, 2010

Thanks for proving my point TDick, or anonymous blowhard.
All of you gumbies out there love your chain anchors and sport routes, but your give no respect or credit to those putting them up. If fact you anonymously bash them like your doing here.
I guess the 5.9 crowd is the wrong place look for any help. Your to busy climbing like shit because your head is up your ass.
I will happily buy the "Cleanup Crew" a beer. Just come on into the gym and identify yourselves.


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Jul 8, 2010
Bocan

Musashi wrote:
Thanks for proving my point TDick, or anonymous blowhard. All of you gumbies out there love your chain anchors and sport routes, but your give no respect or credit to those putting them up. If fact you anonymously bash them like your doing here. I guess the 5.9 crowd is the wrong place look for any help. Your to busy climbing like shit because your head is up your ass. I will happily buy the "Cleanup Crew" a beer. Just come on into the gym and identify yourselves.


So you're upset so I won't over react, but I must say that no matter how much I love climbing and it is my life...in the grand scheme of things it doesn't mean shit.

So what I'm saying is, big deal how well you climb. The only one who cares is you. I may climb 5.9, but I'm not the dumb ass who got my draws stolen.

Hey moderators...maybe we should close this thread since no one knows who stole the draws.


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By Ian F.
From Phx
Jul 8, 2010

Musashi wrote:
Thanks for proving my point TDick, or anonymous blowhard. All of you gumbies out there love your chain anchors and sport routes, but your give no respect or credit to those putting them up. If fact you anonymously bash them like your doing here. I guess the 5.9 crowd is the wrong place look for any help. Your to busy climbing like shit because your head is up your ass. I will happily buy the "Cleanup Crew" a beer. Just come on into the gym and identify yourselves.



What a beatch! Who are the gumbies again? Apparently it's you!

Might just want to stay in the Gym, the real world is a bitch.


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By Derek Lawrence
From Bailey
Jul 9, 2010
Cocaine Corner

TDog wrote:
Sharma didn't have fixed draws on "Jumbo Love". Step it up instead of dummying it down.


I generally stay out of these gripe sessions but gotta call BS when i see it... Chek out the photos on this page
www.boonespeed.com/gallery.html?gallery=CHRIS%20SHARMA%3A%20>>>

LOTSA fixed draws and extended draws on Jumbo Love...
Sharma only has one on either side of his harness (which i would guess is to clip in direct if needed)


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Jul 9, 2010
Bocan

Derek Lawrence wrote:
I generally stay out of these gripe sessions but gotta call BS when i see it... Chek out the photos on this page www.boonespeed.com/gallery.html?gallery=CHRIS%20SHARMA%3A%20>>> LOTSA fixed draws and extended draws on Jumbo Love... Sharma only has one on either side of his harness (which i would guess is to clip in direct if needed)


Out of interest are they "fixed" are are they just pre-placed to be removed when he's done with the climb? Of course that leaves the aspect of how long the climb will take to consider.

And I guess if you can steal the draws off a 5.15b climb you're welcome to them!!! :o)


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