By M LaViolette Jr.
From The Past
Dec 16, 2011
| JohnWesely wrote: Yes. Sport climbing and Trad climbing take an entirely different approach to climbing. Bringing a trad mindset to sport makes you look like a doofus. You are top roping too much if you are doing it to make the route easier instead of safer.
So we agree, aiding through a dangerous section of a trad climb and calling it free would be lame. But you can't fathom the idea that some people might think that top roping through a dangerous part on a sport climb and calling it a redpoint is equally lame? Come on.
If making sure that keeping the integrity of the diffuculty level stays intact but throwing as much risk out the window as you see fit, then how do we go about this situation? As someone else posted earlier (csproul, i think) some climbs may actually be harder to top rope than lead. If that were found to be the situation on a particular route would the redpoint distinction go to the harder/safe top rope ascent and the easier/dangerous lead ascent count for nothing? Of course not. Why? Because redpointing is a distinction only for leading and not for top roping, regardless of the difficulty. The important deciding factor is the risk involved on the lead! Risk is an integral part of leading that you cannot just do away with and pretend it's the same thing, it's not. You can tell yourself in the mirror until you are blue in the face that stick clipping is not top roping, but it is exactly the same thing, just on a smaller scale. Again, a quantitative difference, not qualitative.
If the reason that redpoints don't count on top rope is just because it's easier and not because it's any less risky, that's because you don't have to stop and place the draws and clip them, which you also don't have to do when you stick clip, therefore easier, so your argument doesn't carry much weight on either front.
I also agree that trad and sport are two different games and to expect the same "rules" to apply to both of them is unreasonable. But I think that "redpoint" should be a pretty unambiguous term that has the same meaning across all the disciplines. Occam's Razor says essentially that the easiest solution to a problem is always the best one. In order to simply cut out all the subjectivity and view the whole think objectively it makes most sense to say that because stick clipping is a form of top roping it does not count as a redpoint, whether you think it's too scary and dangerous to do the lead without one or not. | 
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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 16, 2011
| M LaViolette Jr. wrote: As someone else posted earlier (csproul, i think) some climbs may actually be harder to top rope than lead. If that were found to be the situation on a particular route would the redpoint distinction go to the harder/safe top rope ascent and the easier/dangerous lead ascent count for nothing? Of course not.
Harder or more dangerous, to top rope than lead? Please explain a situation where cleanly top roping a route is going to be more physically difficult than cleanly leading. |
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By M LaViolette Jr.
From The Past
Dec 16, 2011
| csproul wrote: In many instances TRing a steep sport climb is harder than leading it.
We'll let him answer that. |
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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 16, 2011
| M LaViolette Jr. wrote: We'll let him answer that.
Is there any part of your post where you know what you're talking about? |
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By M LaViolette Jr.
From The Past
Dec 16, 2011
| Ryan Kelly wrote: Is there any part of your post where you know what you're talking about?
Let me say this, I don't think that can actually be shown to be true. But treated as a hypothetical situation (which someone else does believe to be true) it can still be used to illustrate the point that the redpoint distinction is not derived from which is the more difficult style of ascent. |
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By camhead
From The Old Northwest
Dec 16, 2011
| Ryan Kelly wrote: Harder or more dangerous, to top rope than lead? Please explain a situation where cleanly top roping a route is going to be more physically difficult than cleanly leading.
Horizontal roofs. Trust me on this one, brah.
But M La violet still has no idea what he's talking about. |
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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 16, 2011
| camhead wrote: Horizontal roofs. Trust me on this one, brah. But M La violet still has no idea what he's talking about.
For cleanly climbing the route? How? |
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By phillip
Dec 16, 2011
|
How can it be legit redpoint or pinkpoint if no bolts and two many pads, but still harder then 12C??!!!!!! |
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By camhead
From The Old Northwest
Dec 16, 2011
| Ryan Kelly wrote: For cleanly climbing the route? How?
Because unclipping draws is often more difficult than clipping them, especially on extended horizontal roofs. So, unless you are going to say something stupid like "the action of clipping is not the same as climbing," it is definitely possible that a lot of steep routes are harder to safely TR than to safely lead. |
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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 16, 2011
| camhead wrote: Because unclipping draws is often more difficult than clipping them, especially on extended horizontal roofs. So, unless you are going to say something stupid like "the action of clipping is not the same as climbing," it is definitely possible that a lot of steep routes are harder to safely TR than to safely lead.
Adding in unclipping on toprope completely negates his initial point. For purposes of his discussion you’d have to assume he was talking about top roping as opposed to following or having in directionals. |
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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 16, 2011
| Deez honkey ass crackas be speakin duh troof! Leadin' be harder and shits! Unless of course, dey be dose overhung leads 'n shits. Den, youse better of leadin your own shits 'n shit, my honkey. Shit. |
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By DEF
From CT
Dec 16, 2011
| Johny Q wrote: The valid point is obvious to the real climbers discussing this point Andrew, just not to you. Most real climbers don't really consider 5.10 climbers to be real climbers at all. They are beginners. They might become real climbers someday through hard work, dedication, and tons of pain, but in the meantime they are just learning the sport. You have no background to talk about anything other than easy beginner climbs because that is all you know. Pontificating about something you know nothing about is just plain idiotic.
This is ridiculous, along with 'sport climbing starts at 5.12' climbing is personal and individual and if you're seeking validation for how you choose to spend your free time on the internet, you may not be a 'real climber'
I don't know all the rules, because there arent any. Be honest with how you climb and enjoy the experience. If somebody tells you your send doesn't count because you stick clipped the first bolt, tell them to mind their own business. |
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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 16, 2011
| Damn! If I be so bold wit my blackface tawk, I wood sez you iz write! Dis hole discussion bin most illuminatin'. I has learned soooo much from you smart azz honkeys! |
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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Dec 16, 2011
| Johny Q is right on. |
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By csproul
Dec 16, 2011
| M LaViolette Jr. wrote: We'll let him answer that.
Steep routes, long roof sections, traversing sections with directionals...these are often harder ( or at least more awkward) to unclip than they are to clip on lead. That they may feel harder or scarier on the way up is largely in your head. Again, what you're missing is there are any number of things you can do to make a sport climb harder, but in sport climbing, none of those things matter aside from the climbing itself. Like John said, if you want to arbitrariliy make climbing harder, do the whole climb squeezing a quarter between your ass cheeks. It'll make the climb harder! Or just go trad climbing. |
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By JohnWesely
From Athens, GA
Dec 16, 2011
| M LaViolette Jr. wrote: So we agree, aiding through a dangerous section of a trad climb and calling it free would be lame. But you can't fathom the idea that some people might think that top roping through a dangerous part on a sport climb and calling it a redpoint is equally lame? Come on. If making sure that keeping the integrity of the diffuculty level stays intact but throwing as much risk out the window as you see fit, then how do we go about this situation? As someone else posted earlier (csproul, i think) some climbs may actually be harder to top rope than lead. If that were found to be the situation on a particular route would the redpoint distinction go to the harder/safe top rope ascent and the easier/dangerous lead ascent count for nothing? Of course not. Why? Because redpointing is a distinction only for leading and not for top roping, regardless of the difficulty. The important deciding factor is the risk involved on the lead! Risk is an integral part of leading that you cannot just do away with and pretend it's the same thing, it's not. You can tell yourself in the mirror until you are blue in the face that stick clipping is not top roping, but it is exactly the same thing, just on a smaller scale. Again, a quantitative difference, not qualitative. If the reason that redpoints don't count on top rope is just because it's easier and not because it's any less risky, that's because you don't have to stop and place the draws and clip them, which you also don't have to do when you stick clip, therefore easier, so your argument doesn't carry much weight on either front. I also agree that trad and sport are two different games and to expect the same "rules" to apply to both of them is unreasonable. But I think that "redpoint" should be a pretty unambiguous term that has the same meaning across all the disciplines. Occam's Razor says essentially that the easiest solution to a problem is always the best one. In order to simply cut out all the subjectivity and view the whole think objectively it makes most sense to say that because stick clipping is a form of top roping it does not count as a redpoint, whether you think it's too scary and dangerous to do the lead without one or not.
Occam's razor has nothing to do with. No amount of sophistry is going to change the fact that your conception of sport climbing is fundamentally flawed. |
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By M LaViolette Jr.
From The Past
Dec 16, 2011
| JohnWesely wrote: Occam's razor has nothing to do with. No amount of sophistry is going to change the fact that your conception of sport climbing is fundamentally flawed.
Really? That's what you came back with? Besides just good old disagreeing with me how about point out where my logic is flawed. Actually, don't even bother, I win. |
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By Dan Austin
Dec 16, 2011
| M LaViolette Jr. wrote: Really? That's what you came back with? Besides just good old disagreeing with me how about point out where my logic is flawed. Actually, don't even bother, I win.
stick clipping the first bolt does make a climb safer and maybe mentally easier; however, that doesn't change the fact that you're climbing a line of bolts that have been PERMANENTLY DRILLED INTO THE ROCK. no matter what you say, you're still clipping fixed gear, and i say this as a sport climber, not as some tradass old man. you can convince yourself that you're being more pure or badass or whatever by not stick clipping sketchy first bolts, but as evidenced by this thread, literally no one else cares.
if you're just trolling, good job, whatever, but if not, do you think your opinion would change after you broke your ankles because a rock broke/your foot slipped/a bee stung you on your way up to that first bolt? i'm far from a rampant stick clipper, and i'd even say that in the vast majority of cases where people stick clip, it's more so to protect them mentally than from an actual bad fall. that being said, there are times when your options are stick clipping a first bolt or potentially taking a BAD fall -- some climbs start on ledges or steep slopes, and in addition to falling from a substantial height onto talus, you might then have another life-threatening fall off a ledge or down a slope.
in general, i would say it's best to not stick clip whenever possible, but sometimes you just have to, and it's up to the climber to make that call. does a stick clip invalidate a send? a "send" is an arbitrary accomplishment. there is no send beyond what the climbing community determines to be considered a send. if there's one thing that's abundantly clear from this thread, it's that stick clipping does not invalidate a send.
it's almost exactly the same as topping out a boulder sloppily. it's a matter of style. if i'm topping out a boulder, ideally, i don't want to use my knees or beached-whale my way on top. but if my choice is between a desperate knee scum belly flop onto the top or trying to make it look pretty but then falling 25 feet onto my back on a blown-out crashpad, i'm going to do whatever i can to get on top, regardless of how ugly it is. stick clipping is the ugly top out sport climbing. somewhat shameful, but also mutually understood within the community to be a necessity. |
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By M LaViolette Jr.
From The Past
Dec 16, 2011
| Dan Austin wrote: ...somewhat shameful...
Well, someone else finally said it. That took balls man, good job. |
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By slim
Dec 19, 2011
| that photo is the story of my life, in so many ways. now, i just gotta spend some time mopping my starbucks out of my keyboard. please send me a check for $4.... |
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By Suka D.
Dec 28, 2011
| Rant ON- I am a noob on this forum, and to climbing. I have been climbing in the gym for maybe four years, and outside for 2 1/2. Our 'mentor' has been climbing for about 20 yrs, 10's on sport, trads 9's. In regards to some comments- I believe he is a true climber, even though he may never push past these grades at his age. Personally, I am starting to lead 10s(sport), still working on the trad stuff. My reason for reading this thread was that I have never used a stick. However, there are a lot of routes that I could work on if I did. This would open up a lot of climbing for my wife and I, which in turn would mean FUN, and still a considerable challenge. Would this make me less of a 'climber'? Better yet, do I care? Do any of you care if I am less of a climber? I started rock climbing because of the adrenaline, the camaraderie, the physical challenge, and the challenge of learning vast amounts of information/technique, AND because I ENJOY it. I have met a lot of nice, helpful people from climbing. But the vast majority are very egotistical, holier than thou bullies!!(Read through the last few pages-REALLY??) If some people took half of the energy they spend on being 'pure climbers', and tried being friendly and helpful instead of knocking anybody that can't climb a 12, maybe that new guy at the crag would learn quicker/better and not have to stick clip!! Maybe if a few muscle bound goons came over and gave a spot so I had piece of mind to reach the first bolt when I am pushing a harder grade, I wouldn't think about using a stick! I am sure, with more hard work I will be leading 10s easily, and probably 11s. And hey, if I have to stick clip a few bolts along the way, so be it! Next time your out and you see someone stick clipping you should realize that they may be working just as hard as you to get better, they are just many levels below you! Rant OFF. Thank you
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By Suka D.
Dec 28, 2011
| I forgot- OP-I would say no way, you can't stick clip on a red point! Personally, I hang me draws if I am going for a red point. But thats me, I a not going to knock what others do! |
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By Old Crusty
Dec 29, 2011
| You guys need to get out and climb. Move on to trad climbing and you won't have to worry if you "stick clipped" the first bolt, hung draws or packed your "kotex with wings" before climbing. Just climb for goodness sake. Jeeeasssshhhh! |
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By kiff
Dec 29, 2011
| In the most natural sense of climbing, I would think soloing and top roping are as "pure" as it gets. When did lead climbing become so necessary? (and so awesome) |
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By Fall Guy
Dec 29, 2011
| Knight of a Woeful Figure wrote: In the most natural sense of climbing, I would think soloing and top roping are as "pure" as it gets. When did lead climbing become so necessary? (and so awesome)
why leave out bouldering, dont think its awesome? |
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