By Tico
May 3, 2008
| Avery Nelson wrote: That's not been my experience, when my buddy was unintentionally speeding on the way to zion and we were pulled over.
Unintentionally speeding? Were the brakes out?
S. Gileadi wrote: No, you aren't getting MY point. What do the cops do once they have established that the person that they are dealing with is not dangerous and does not possess any hard drugs?
Please let me know how to tell if someone is not dangerous, if you've caught them speeding and breaking a federal law by possessing illegal drugs. I'm scary as hell looking to most rural cops, so are most climbers.
I'm not aware of how many meth busts have been made on 211 or 191. I suspect you're not aware either, and are making a "point" that is pure conjecture. I'd also posit that you're criticisms are not constructive, it's a lot of "this sucks they should do something else", without saying what "something else" is, and how to fund it (yes virginia, most leo outfits are underfunded, they do need to ticket a certain number of lesser criminals in order to fund the major operations). |  |
By Bill Duncan
From Jamestown, CO
May 3, 2008
| David Shiembob wrote: Hah, all the Coloradans complaining about Utah is always good for a laugh. Nazi Germany, really? I've been driving all over the state for six years now, and I've only had one bad situation, that I'll admit I got very lucky on. But it was my dumb-ass fault for thinking 89A sounded like a nice scenic cruise, forgetting it goes through the notorious town of Hildale. It sucks they've set up some sort of stoned climber nabbing speed trap on the way to the creek though, thanks for the timeless reminder to not break more than one law at a time.
It's interesting that you think this is humorous. A lot of people's lives are seriously impacted by over-zealous law enforcement, and Monticello is notorious for this. The quote from the Monticello UT attorney was "These guys are @#!&!! Nazis." This is coming from a person who earns their living defending the unlawful search and seizures that routinely take place near there. They should know. They have heard case after case. Defending people like you who have had a bad day. Many are due to the lack of training of the officers there. I'm glad you were lucky, but try being a bit more empathetic to your fellow climbers. If you ever find yourself in an unpleasant situation of this nature, and you're not so lucky, you will find empathy easier. 6 years is barely a week compared to all of your brethren. | |
By Avery Nelson
From Boulder, CO
May 3, 2008
| Tico wrote: Unintentionally speeding? Were the brakes out?
Dude, you and your comments smell like bacon.
Ever gone down a hill before? | |
By S. Gileadi
From Salt Lake City
May 3, 2008
| Tico wrote: Please let me know how to tell if someone is not dangerous, if you've caught them speeding and breaking a federal law by possessing illegal drugs.
Let's see... if you have a clean record, are polite, and comply with everything the officer tells you, he checks your car and finds nothing illegal, and you sit complacently and wait for him to write you a ticket or warning, is there any reason for the cop to do anything but write you that ticket? If you were indeed a dangerous person, should the officer go out of his way to try to provoke you into doing or saying something that he can arrest you for? 'Cause that sort of behavior happens all the time. If the person subject to that provocation were indeed dangerous, would that not increase the personal danger to that officer? In other words, I don't buy your argument at all.
Should the Provo police force have been briefed on that party that my Mormon friend gave? Is that tax money well spent?
Don't get me wrong, there are good cops out there, and I appreciate it when they do their job right. And I'll tell you precisely what should be done- when a police officer or multiple police officers step over the line and people's rights are infringed (it's a broad enough line, absolutely), they should be aware that to do so will put their job in jeopardy. The problem with Utah (outside of SLC) is that not much happens when they go over that line.
I do think that they should get more funding and should be paid better overall, absolutely. I think you can see what I'm getting at. Better checks on bad behavior will just help prevent lawsuits also, which of course means that the bottom line of $$ is less at risk too if you see what I mean. | |
By andy peter tretiakoff
From Can't Decide
May 3, 2008
| The Officer that arrested me for possession year's ago in Lake Tahoe was a Total D**K! I was very polite and cooperated with him during the whole process. I understand they have a tough job, but I think it suck's when they have too be such Jerk's when you are very polite with them. I hope that Officer get's some big Carma Thrown his way!!! | |
By patrick wild
May 4, 2008
| Cops are simple minded drones. Just use some Jedi mind tricks.
"These are not the drugs you're looking for." | |
By Tico
May 4, 2008
| Avery Nelson wrote: Dude, you and your comments smell like bacon. Ever gone down a hill before?
Yeah, I generally use the brakes and/or transmission to moderate my speed. That's the pedal in the middle and the pointy thing on your right, along with the pedal on the left. | |
By Tico
May 4, 2008
| S. Gileadi wrote: Let's see... if you have a clean record, are polite, and comply with everything the officer tells you, he checks your car and finds nothing illegal, and you sit complacently and wait for him to write you a ticket or warning, is there any reason for the cop to do anything but write you that ticket? If you were indeed a dangerous person, should the officer go out of his way to try to provoke you into doing or saying something that he can arrest you for? 'Cause that sort of behavior happens all the time. If the person subject to that provocation were indeed dangerous, would that not increase the personal danger to that officer? In other words, I don't buy your argument at all. Should the Provo police force have been briefed on that party that my Mormon friend gave? Is that tax money well spent? Don't get me wrong, there are good cops out there, and I appreciate it when they do their job right. And I'll tell you precisely what should be done- when a police officer or multiple police officers step over the line and people's rights are infringed (it's a broad enough line, absolutely), they should be aware that to do so will put their job in jeopardy. The problem with Utah (outside of SLC) is that not much happens when they go over that line. I do think that they should get more funding and should be paid better overall, absolutely. I think you can see what I'm getting at. Better checks on bad behavior will just help prevent lawsuits also, which of course means that the bottom line of $$ is less at risk too if you see what I mean.
Look, I'm pretty much done debating this, but let's try it this way. I don't believe that the Provo "Chief of Police" is making personal phone calls to your friend. I don't believe that the cops are having meetings about the party unless people have been calling them with valid concerns about it. I think a lot of people's stories about cops are exaggerated, and don't really start like they should (I'm a fucking idiot and fucked up, got snagged, and then Smokey didn't just let me slide, he's MEAN!). I guarantee you I've dealt with cops (from both sides of the bars) more than most, and they're just not how you describe
If you've broken the law by possessing some pot and are dumb enough to get caught, I think you deserve a night in the pokey to give the cops enough time to verify your identity and make sure you're not a bad guy. I think if you're caught driving drunk or high you need a night in the poke, and you need to not drive anymore for a while. You guys are whining on about victimless crimes, but not really comprehending that the fact that your actions ARE crimes may inhibit production of victims.
And shit, it's been awhile but I'll give you the standard response to this kind of lily bitching: If you don't like it, write to your congressman. Do something about it.
It works, but I'm sure none of you have ever tried. So much easier to preach to the choir on the internet. | |
By Dave Wise
From Pinehurst, NC
May 4, 2008
| Bill Duncan wrote: It's interesting that you think this is humorous. A lot of people's lives are seriously impacted by over-zealous law enforcement, and Monticello is notorious for this. The quote from the Monticello UT attorney was "These guys are @#!&!! Nazis." This is coming from a person who earns their living defending the unlawful search and seizures that routinely take place near there. They should know. They have heard case after case. Defending people like you who have had a bad day. Many are due to the lack of training of the officers there. I'm glad you were lucky, but try being a bit more empathetic to your fellow climbers. If you ever find yourself in an unpleasant situation of this nature, and you're not so lucky, you will find empathy easier. 6 years is barely a week compared to all of your brethren.
Until they start rounding climbers up, shipping them off to concentration camps and gassing them, I'd prefer to believe the attorney was merely being overly dramatic with his use of metaphor.
I'm with Tico on this one. Get a grip people. You could live someplace that genuinely has no respect for individual rights where they would just as soon haul you off into the desert and shoot you. Know your rights, don't break the law and be respectful if they pull you over.
And why do you think they profile climbers as drug users anyway? Could it have anything to do with assinine threads like this?
Here's your sign.... | |
By Flex
From Durango, CO
May 4, 2008
| My 2 experiences with the UT cops are very different, although they were separated by 9 years.
1998: My buddy & I are driving late night from Flagstaff to Fort Collins. We're tossing back some beers, pulling on the bong, listening to loud music, you know-a college road trip. We come into Blanding and don't decelerate as quickly as the speed limit (55 to 25 in a few feet). The local cop pulls us over, sees the empties, asks my buddy (who's driving in his car) if he has any drugs. Of course, being young & dumb he replies "no" as he turns and looks at the console where the weed was. The cop finds the microscopic amount of schwag, the bong, & pipe. He arrests my friend (who saved my ass by claiming it all as his own) and then has to decide what to do with me. He gives my a breathalyzer, which I somehow pass, so he turns the vehicle over to me and takes the friend to jail in Monticello. I go and bivy at Recapture reservoir, and show up at the "courthouse" in Monticello in the AM. It's actually a small office with a "judge" in plain clothes, and the arresting officer, also in plain clothes. The friend is charged with possesion of weed & paraphranilia, which comes with a $950 fine, yet no jail time. The cop rings in with how cooperative we were so the "judge" decides we can walk for $550. He gives them his credit card and we leave that morning. Seems to me like the town just made ~$450-500 after you subtract the cost of a few hours in jail, not a bad scam.
2007: Girlfriend & I are coming down the hill into La Sal from Paradox, CO loaded with camping gear and 2 dogs, and (gasp) we exceed the speed limit by a few MPH. State Patrol stops us, we're very polite, he pulls up my clean record and off we go with a warning.
Moral: Dirtbag dudes are a prime target for a quick scam, while a "clean-looking family" in a newer car should be left alone. Go figure. | |
By S. Gileadi
From Salt Lake City
May 4, 2008
| Tico wrote: Look, I'm pretty much done debating this, but let's try it this way. I don't believe that the Provo "Chief of Police" is making personal phone calls to your friend. I don't believe that the cops are having meetings about the party unless people have been calling them with valid concerns about it.
Well, I'm pretty much done debating too, but I assure you that story is the truth. It happened not long after there was a shooting at a Provo club and the police were going overboard on cracking down on every party or music establishment around. I think that they became aware of the party because my friend had called to see about legal issues since they wanted to pass around the hat or potentially have a cover charge for the performer and they wanted to make sure that was OK/legal at a private party. | |
By Christian
From Tucson, Az
May 4, 2008
| It's my understanding cops can search anything that is within arm's reach of the driver even without reasonable cause or consent? Is this correct? | |
By Avery Nelson
From Boulder, CO
May 4, 2008
| Christian wrote: It's my understanding cops can search anything that is within arm's reach of the driver even without reasonable cause or consent? Is this correct?
Not at all. You are totally missing out if you don't educate yourself by watching these videos that Tim posted earlier (thanks Tim). This is sponsered by the ACLU, and is basically the approach to preserving your constitutional rights.
Watching the 45 minute version of the video is well worth the time. They tell you the most imporant line is "I don't consent to any searches".
How to Refuse a Police Search
BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters | |
By Avery Nelson
From Boulder, CO
May 4, 2008
| Tico wrote: Yeah, I generally use the brakes and/or transmission to moderate my speed. That's the pedal in the middle and the pointy thing on your right, along with the pedal on the left.
I'm happy to hear you've never exceeded the speed limit without realizing it. A model for us all. | |
By Jed Pointer
From Boulder, CO
May 5, 2008
| Cops and law breakers - they fulfill each others psychological needs.
If you really feel like you should be able to speed around while stoned, nut up and finance it. They're just fines. | |
By Nick Stayner
From Tuolumne Meadows, CA
May 5, 2008
| Solid advice from a habitual lawbreaker I once knew: "Only break one law at a time". | |
By sean connors
May 5, 2008
| Nick Stayner wrote: Solid advice from a habitual lawbreaker I once knew: "Only break one law at a time".
Dude, that's never any fun. Me preferably, i like to drive down the road while hittin the pipe, drinking margaritas, and partying with a dozen strippers, all whom which love the coca.
It's really a good time.And if you ever get pulled over you have an army of exotic dancers to pursue the cops. Who can say no to that?! | |
By sevrdhed
May 6, 2008
| Flex wrote: My 2 experiences with the UT cops are very different, although they were separated by 9 years. 1998: My buddy & I are driving late night from Flagstaff to Fort Collins. We're tossing back some beers, pulling on the bong, listening to loud music, you know-a college road trip. We come into Blanding and don't decelerate as quickly as the speed limit (55 to 25 in a few feet). The local cop pulls us over, sees the empties, asks my buddy (who's driving in his car) if he has any drugs. Of course, being young & dumb he replies "no" as he turns and looks at the console where the weed was. The cop finds the microscopic amount of schwag, the bong, & pipe. He arrests my friend (who saved my ass by claiming it all as his own) and then has to decide what to do with me. He gives my a breathalyzer, which I somehow pass, so he turns the vehicle over to me and takes the friend to jail in Monticello. I go and bivy at Recapture reservoir, and show up at the "courthouse" in Monticello in the AM. It's actually a small office with a "judge" in plain clothes, and the arresting officer, also in plain clothes. The friend is charged with possesion of weed & paraphranilia, which comes with a $950 fine, yet no jail time. The cop rings in with how cooperative we were so the "judge" decides we can walk for $550. He gives them his credit card and we leave that morning. Seems to me like the town just made ~$450-500 after you subtract the cost of a few hours in jail, not a bad scam.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I see the part where you got scammed? Was it the part where you admitted to speeding? Or the part where you were illegally possessing marijuana? Or the part where you admitted to your friend drinking and driving?
Or maybe it was the part where the arresting officer the next day said you guys cooperated, and got what could have been a potentially serious and expensive mistake including potential jail time, knocked down to a simple $550 fine?
Yeah, that seems like a huge scam to me too. Those bastards. | |
By Ben Faber
From Benfield, Kolorado
May 8, 2008
| Tico wrote: Look, I'm pretty much done debating this, but let's try it this way. I don't believe that the Provo "Chief of Police" is making personal phone calls to your friend. I don't believe that the cops are having meetings about the party unless people have been calling them with valid concerns about it. I think a lot of people's stories about cops are exaggerated, and don't really start like they should (I'm a fucking idiot and fucked up, got snagged, and then Smokey didn't just let me slide, he's MEAN!). I guarantee you I've dealt with cops (from both sides of the bars) more than most, and they're just not how you describe If you've broken the law by possessing some pot and are dumb enough to get caught, I think you deserve a night in the pokey to give the cops enough time to verify your identity and make sure you're not a bad guy. I think if you're caught driving drunk or high you need a night in the poke, and you need to not drive anymore for a while. You guys are whining on about victimless crimes, but not really comprehending that the fact that your actions ARE crimes may inhibit production of victims. And shit, it's been awhile but I'll give you the standard response to this kind of lily bitching: If you don't like it, write to your congressman. Do something about it. It works, but I'm sure none of you have ever tried. So much easier to preach to the choir on the internet.
What a bunch of f-ing b-s. Morally and ethically speaking (not legally), and act is only is only a crime if someone's rights have been violated. Just how is the little dirtbag lighting-up at the campsite violating your rights? To defend these sorts of laws (which you have by saying "...deserve a night in the pokey...") shows intellectual laziness and moral bankruptcy. Maybe we should just put everyone in jail until we can "verify their identity?"
The fact is that plenty of cops are out for some easy pickings with climbers and other dumbasses. Many of them definitely go to great extents to try to find a way to make an arrest or write a fat ticket. How do I know this? One of my really good friends is a cop AND I've been pulled-over in Utard.
When I got pulled over in Utard, I was breathalyzed (easily passed) and the guy still wouldn't let-up. He wanted to search my car and I told him no. He then said he had probable cause (because of the single 3.2 beer I had at the Moab Brewery) and proceeded to search my car. Nothing found, of course and I asked him why he even bothered asking me? No answer. Public servant my arse. | |
By Ben Folsom
May 8, 2008
| It seems like Tico thinks he is the only climber out there who is responsible. There are other people out there who are activists my friend. I write to Senators, Congressmen/women, city council, county government, state government, etc... on a weekly basis. I have written hundreds of letters to government officials, and... does it work... I have been responded to about 5 times, and I can be pretty sure that none of what I did made any difference at all. Government officials are mostly lazy idiots who spend our tax money giving themselves raises and going on their vacations. People in government are pretty much only motivated by money. If you don't have tons of money, your voice means jack shit. | |
By Stymingersfink
May 8, 2008
| Ben Folsom wrote: It seems like Tico thinks he is the only climber out there who is responsible. There are other people out there who are activists my friend. I write to Senators, Congressmen/women, city council, county government, state government, etc... on a weekly basis. I have written hundreds of letters to government officials, and... does it work... I have been responded to about 5 times, and I can be pretty sure that none of what I did made any difference at all. Government officials are mostly lazy idiots who spend our tax money giving themselves raises and going on their vacations. People in government are pretty much only motivated by money. If you don't have tons of money, your voice means jack shit.
Not that we shouldn't yell loudly and often.
in the absence of action on their part, peaceful non-violent resistance (though it's obvious by the state of things in Tibet that this doesn't erally work) should be practiced often.
Spark another one... Viva la Resistance!
;) | |
By S. Gileadi
From Salt Lake City
May 9, 2008
| Ben Faber wrote: Maybe we should just put everyone in jail until we can "verify their identity?"
Which is another way of saying "guilty until proven innocent"- since there's no way of telling that Joe Q. Citizen is or is not dangerous, better throw him in the tank until we figure out if he is or not, or better to toe or cross the line of infringing on Joe Q.'s rights by demanding a search of the vehicle since there's no way of telling whether he might have meth etc etc.
The way the law was founded and has historically been upheld in this country was based on the ideal of presumption of innocence, not the other way around. | |
By Flex
From Durango, CO
May 9, 2008
| sevrdhed wrote: I'm sorry, I'm not sure I see the part where you got scammed?
Well, usually possession of drugs, paraphernalia, and DUI is an open invitation for the cops to throw the book at you, especially conservative small town, "family values" types. So why didn't they? Well it's my belief that a prosecution of that magnitude would involve 1)longer time in jail before a court appearance, 2)collection & processing of all evidence, 3)DA to organize a prosecution, 4) a trial they would probably win but may not get all the convictions they wanted. All of these add up to a lot of money and effort for the poor little town of Monticello. For what? So my friend would pay some sort of fine and then serve time in the county jail where they have to continue shelling out money to support him?
It's a hell of a better deal for the town to let him sit in the drunk tank for a few hours and collect >$500 paid with a credit card(!?). Doesn't seem to follow the due process of the law now does it?
In the end it was a mutually beneficial deal as I'm sure my friend didn't want to go through with a trial and possible convictions. But it makes you wonder, who are these officials really looking out for? | |
By bbrock
From Al
May 9, 2008
| Flex wrote: But it makes you wonder, who are these officials really looking out for?
Well mostly they are looking out for the best interests of the citizens that they "serve". But the other side is they are for sure a self serving agency that is interested in funding there department and making themselves look good. Do you really think agencies such as the DEA and local drug squads really want drugs to be gone....NO. They would be out of a job and have no one to harrass and therefore boost there ego and self esteem, as well as supplement their pitiful salaries with corruption.
But we aren't talking about them, we are talking about local Barneys out for some fun and harrassment. The bottom line is....DON'T RIDE DIRTY, DON'T RIDE DIRTY, DON'T RIDE DIRTY | |
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