At least aid a few pitches somewhere first. Please. Just give it a try. Figure out how to jug a line and try top stepping once or twice. Maybe even find a local route somewhere to go up on and do some multi-pitch climbing. If you're gonna use a ledge, try it out at your own crag first. There might be a C2 crack somewhere you could give a try while you're at it. Go find some grovelly chimneys too. It'll make everyone else down there happy.

while we're listing prefered behavoir, i'd just like to point out that Moonlight and Monkeyfinger are FREE climbs. i know, i'm an elitest prick, i've heard it before, so save your typing fingers, besides, you should only need one to say what you want to, right?

just a thought, i don't fly out to CA to set up shop on the east face of Washington Column for a 3 day ascent, it would be nice if i could enjoy the same lack of ledges on UT's premier long, free line. oh well, it was worth a try.

The Nose on El Cap is a free climb too.... you gonna ban all aid climbing in Yosemite now?

LOL...classic post!

Trashman...you freed Moonlight? proud! Though I still think a competent aid team should still be able to enjoy it also! What a classic! We once got stuck sitting on the Rockerblock, behind Team Nebraska, 3 dudes...3 enormous haul bags. In the two hours it took them to HAUL the dihedral, they dropped 5 nuts and 2 cams on (by) us...ziiIIIP!. We bailed as it was the time of stardrives on that route, and the idea of trying to pass that cluster, all of us hanging on two stardrives made me nervous.....(bootied their dropped shit)..walked across the road, did spaceshot, bivie up top, partied, descended...and they had moved maybe two pitches!!! Annoying...but that's zion trade routes for ya!

What kind of traffic do you guys generally see on Moonlight in early Nov?

Tea,
Nope, 2 seperate trips down to try, but every time, at least 3 parties before RB on sat. morning. i've pretty much given up on the trade routes down there, kinda over getting shit dropped on my head. hell, i picked up a couple of stoppers just going to do coconut corner on sunday from a party doing the standard "climb two pitches, sleep, bail" dance on t-stone.

and Mark, the Nose is a 5.14 free climb w/ 3-4 ascents. Moonlight is a 5.12 free climb w/ 3-4 onsights, slightly different level, like i said, you want a comparison, how many teams do a multiday siege of the East face(Astroman) these days?

i'm not too worried, there are other places to climb down there, and the routes i've done in the last month or so are more than enough to keep me away from the circus for a few years.

Jeff, i've never noticed a drop off in traffic on that line. if the weather's good, there's usually a couple of parties on it for the weeknd. best bet is to take some time off mid week if possible.

That's the plan...

Rob T

Now Im not a dick or anything like that, but I disagree with you and your post about aid climbing on moonlight. We can not all be gifted as those who choose to Free moonlight. The damn route started as an aid line and should still be enjoyed as an aid line. Granted I have been shut down 3 times on that route due to slow teams, and will never return to climb it again, but that is no reason to shut down climbers from aiding it. I do agree with this whole thread, Climbers need to get some practice before going to zion. Please understand that the rock is for all and not just the hard ass rock jocks. That was not intended towards you at all. Just a phrase.

Bill, Fair enough, mainly making a point about efficiency, as i believe a few here are. I don't really have a problem w/ anyone climbing the route efficiently, and an aid party that knows what they're doing should have no problem knocking off 8 or fewer pitches of C1 much more quickly than most of the parties would be able to free climb the same pitches. However, due to the features on the route, it's not exactly a friendly route for passing, especially with all the kit associated w/ vertical camping.

Brian, it happens, i hear those Ruckman hacks backed off their first IC climb 15 feet up after their only piece fell out, and they think they're good enough to be writing guide books. of course, apples and oranges, but methinks you already knew that.

and if you're looking for embarassing stories, you should have been up at the city 2 weeks ago, i backed off one that was even easier than this chestnut you keep bringing up.
(lest any of this come off as sacreligous or mean spirited, i'm laughing as i type, and the Ruckman story is told by Brett in the IC guidebook)

All right guys, don't be too mad, but in 2000, I was one of those newbies who chose to cut his teeth on a Zion trade route - namely Spaceshot. Yes, we took way too long. Yes, we were very ill-prepared. And yes, we should have had quite a bit more experience under the belt already, and vowed to do so for the next time.
15 hours tram-to-tram, out of water by hour 7, climbed into the night, began decents on blind rapels at 2am, and slept in the bathrooms until the trams came back in the morning.
Hilarious memory and not too proud of it, but.... complaining about the rookies taking too much time on the trade routes is like bitching at a kid learning to ride a bike for taking too long.
Unfortunately, these ultra-classic lines have the most up-to-date beta, are well-cleaned, and generally offer good pro for the whole way (well, usually). Of course these will be where the training wheels come off and we try our first lines. I'm all for the "justification of an elitist attitude" from the hard-men, but you don't become MVP without making some errors in the minors.

Joe O

I do agree with the you in a sense of starting up the trade routes, however I believe this thread was to help the folks who have never set feet in a set of ets (tee ballers) or even placed gear before, Seems that many have only read about such a concept. I have ran into a great many of these guys on trade routes and even when the trade routes have been full some of these guys try to get on harder routes. And they don't want to let you pass. More or less I think that the message should go out that many of these routes can be done in a day and learn how to respect faster climbers buy letting them pass.

That sucks. That route even by a weak aid team can be done in less than 8 hours, and thats if you aid all the pitches. It becomes a moderate free route after the 3rd pitch.

This whole thread reminds me of a conversation I had once with bsmoot about how in the "old days", SL climbers would really cut their teeth on LCC aid climbs (which are generally pretty straight forward and short enough to easily allow the feared bail or retreat) before ever considering going to the Valley or Zion for wall climbing, which used to usually imply AID. I know at one point, I had done every LCC aid climb and I am sure he had, too....geez, duh, he put them all up! And in the 80's, as now, their weren't a lot of people in LCC seeking them.

We agreed that the present trend with lots of climbers newer to the activity is for them to just jump on a route like Spaceshot without the teeth cutting LCC forays to do their first aid....and these people may be 5.13 bolt clipping dudes, but inevitably they run into just a bit of frustration with all the mechanics of wall life. I wonder if the motivation to get into etriers is even different. For example, to cherish the individual moments, movements, and placements (emphasis on placements) up a steep thin crack section can be a beautiful thing. But some big wall aspirants never see anything but the big looming wall lurking above them and basically just want it under their belt (to have done it!) after the fact.

Their is certainly nothing wrong with each approach. I have definitely climbed with people where their first aid climb was Zodiac or Moonlight or I even know a guy (party of two) that spent 12 days climbing the Nose. I thought it was cool the latter dude could hang it out that long...but he definitely let other parties pass him...hell, they were bringing him water and food!

Along those lines of using Zion as a training ground, there also seems to be a trend of people not free climbing up to their ability, just because they put themselves in "aid mode". On granite walls, like those in Yosemite, that is purely a matter of style and personal pride, but in Zion, that has an impact on the rock.

If you have the means to free climb stuff, you should do it. I understand the desire to aid something, just to learn the technique, but save that for the "warm up climbs". In a place like Zion, it's a lot more than just a pure matter of style, aid placements damage the rock more than free placements, and there are fewer placements made when free climbing. In Zion, using the best possible style is actually a matter of preserving the rock.

How many 5.11 climbers have aided the splitter hand cracks on Spaceshot and Touchstone!? (I would add, as an aside, that if you can't free climb 5.10, you probably don't have any business on a big wall, but someone will probably think that is "elitist".)

I always find it odd that any given weekend at Indian Creek there are probably 100+ dudes sending 5.12, yet in Zion....

I'm not saying you have to on-sight or red-point every pitch, but at least try if it's within the realm of possibility. You might just surprise yourself.

Free climbing in Zion is not only better style, it's better conservation.

Mike,
There is a rumor that you added a bolt at the end of the first bolt ladder on Spaceshot, changing the difficulty of transitioning right into the crack. Is this true?

No, this is why you shouldn't believe rumors.

1. The first bolt ladder is about 10-30' left of the natural (free) line, so adding a bolt to it would not help in any way.

2. I did not bolt the natural (free) line, Tim Kemple, Adam Stack and Justen Sjong bolted it.

In general, I don't add bolts to existing aid routes unless I have permission from the FA. I do this out of respect for the community consensus that this is how things should be done, although I personally don't agree with that consensus. My own personal opinion is that free climbing is such a superior style to begin with that if adding bolts is the necessary means, then so be it. Nevertheless, I follow the tradition out of respect for others, sometimes at great personal risk to myself (see the Lowe Route on AL). Now if I pioneer a variation (such as those used on spaceshot), then anything goes, and in those cases I have added bolts. Golden Years is the only route where I added bolts to the aid line with permission from Dave Jones. I did so with much reservation, and actually bailed on my first attempt because I wanted to make sure he was OK with me adding the bolts. He actually wanted me to because he thought it would be a much better free route then aid route. It's likely you've never heard of Golden Years because so few venture away from the T-stone, S-shot, M-light, P-sun circuit. Especially with such a long approach as GY has.

After Mark and I freed spaceshot there was an irate letter to the editor of Climbing criticizing them and us for claiming a free ascent of spaceshot because we had climbed around bolt ladders. I thought it was odd that they would think that bolts define the route. A bolt ladder is an admission of defeat by the original aid climbers because they were unable to find a natural route. Bolt ladders are arbitrary, have little to do with natural features, and therefore, IMO, don't define routes. The features of the rock determine the route, not bolts placed by fallable humans in a state of fatigue and/or fear with only a butt-shot view of the way ahead.

As for the bolt in question, it might be necessary nowadays. So many people are using cam hooks and other destructive techniques in Zion (Thanks Chris Mac!), and there are so many climbers concentrated on so few routes that former clean placements aren't any longer. It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. I'd much rather see a bolt go in, then see more destruction of the rock.

PS, Ron likes to do maintenance on "his" routes. He added drilled angles to Touchstone.