We went to the Real Hidden Valley Yesterday (Oct. 14) with the intention of climbing Sail Away. When we arrived at the base of the route, we found a party of three already on the climb. This is not unusual and we were prepared to wait, however once we assessed the situation, we could tell that the wait would not be normal.

The situation was one of Bob Gaines' guides had rigged the route so that one of his two clients could practice leading the route (simulated lead, not actual). The guide had jumars rigged on one fixed line to the top, perhaps so that he could climb up with his client and give him advice.

Once it was clear to us what was going on, we bailed, went and did another route, and came back a couple of hours later. They were just finishing up.

I'm not against guides. However, I do question the logic in choosing an extremely popular line to do this. Its not as if the guide wasn't aware of the popularity of the climb. He is a Joshua Tree resident. There are many suitable climbs in Joshua Tree for teaching that will not impact other climbers. Does the route have to be a multi-star classic? Sail Away is one of the few really excellent 5.7 jam cracks in the monument. I hope that Bob reads this post or is made aware of this and has a talk with his guides.

ATS, where does it stop? Is it okay if climbers want to practice clean aid on Joshua Tree's most popular routes? Imagine the reaction climbers would have when approaching the base of Illusion Dweller to find a party of 4 aid climbers practicing for a wall. Because classics will always be the most popular routes, I believe a fair ethic is for every member of the party to free climb the route. If another party shows up while your group is climbing and chooses to wait, then once everyone in your group has climbed you should leave.

Yes, there are 3000 routes in the park, some of which are 5.7 or easier. But how many of those are the same quality as Sail Away? In my opinion, very few. When you go on climbing trips, do you not seek out the best routes to climb? This issue doesn't impact me so much because I live in Los Angeles. But I am trying to show consideration for others that are not so lucky to be able to frequent Josh so often as I.

Yes, we did the route after we returned. To be truthful, it wasn't even an inconvenience because we went and did another route, returned 2 hours later and the climb was available.

But just because things ended up working out for my party doesn't mean that the guide's actions were not inconsiderate. Some visitors to the monument have limited time, and thus will want to spend that time wisely climbing the best routes that Josh has to offer.

A guided party has as much right as a private party on a route. Why should they be held to a different standard?

Maybe just get up earlier if you want to get on a specific route :-)

Gary - I feel your pain, but it's always good to have an alternative route in mind, especially in an area as popular as Joshua Tree and certainly on the more popular climbs. First come, first served is the only rule, so get there early or deal with it.

A guide, especially a local one, should be a bit more thoughtful about the climbs chosen, but as mentioned "Why should they be held to a different standard?" Then again, would it make any difference if they weren't a guided party? Substitute "guided party" for half a dozen unrelated parties, and what's the difference? Perhaps your comment about there being thousands more routes has more than one interpretation?

For what is worth (probably not much) here is my opinion: There is absolutely nothing wrong with a guide guiding a classic route at Josh. In fact, what would be the point of hiring a guide to take you up nothing but obscure grainpiles?

But, with that said, what is described was not a guide "guiding" a client up this extremely popular route. The guide had set the route up as a simulated lead climb and was "instructing" on the route. Because "instruction" is a much more time consuming process than guiding, in order to avoid conflicts with recreational climbers it is typically not done at popular areas.

Sail Away is an inordinately popular climb. Most weekend days will see multiple parties lined up for a chance to climb this route. Imo, using Sail Away as an instructional site on a weekend seems fairly inappropriate. It is also likely to engender ill will with climbers, something guides like Bob/Vertical Adventures have worked very hard over the years to avoid.

I wouldn't hesitate to contact Bob (he is a very nice guy and likely unaware of the situation) if you feel the need to follow up on this.

Thanks for everyone's comments, especially Randy's. If I had written my original post with Randy's clarity, maybe we would be done by now.

Chris, I suppose you are correct in pointing out that I am being unnecessarily harsh for singling out guides. I do feel that guides are at least to some degree ambassadors of climbing, so they do have, however minimally, additional responsibilities than private parties. But I definitely think the ethic I describe is to be applied to everyone, not just guides. Thanks for pointing this out.

Regarding Bob, I had a conversation with Tony S. last night and he definitely said he would bring this up with Bob, and for me, that is the end of this. It never was a big deal for me and I guess I've given everyone the impression that I was pretty bummed out. I only wanted to get the issue out there and let Bob know whats up. Done.

No worries Gary, glad it wasn't that worrisome for you. Btw, Tony is a good guy and I'm sure he never meant to cause any inconvenience to anyone - live and learn.

Just to clarify, the guide on Sail Away WAS NOT Tony Sartin. Sartin is a buddy and climbing partner of mine. He called me to say hello the other night so I told him about it. He said he'd talk to Bob. That's all.

I'm purposefully keeping the identity of the guide in question anonymous.

I have spoken with the guide in question, who is relatively new to guiding at josh, and he realizes he made a mistake in setting it up for a simulated lead on a weekend!

"With over 3000 JTree climbs available"...

isn't 7000 closer to correct???...

Bob, thanks for addressing this.

In re-reading this post, I realize I was using the words guiding and instructing interchangeably, but clearly there is a difference as Randy fleshes out. Choosing a mega-classic route to INSTRUCT on (e.g., set up for mock leading, teach how to place gear or aid climb, instruct a large group, etc) - ESPECIALLY on a weekend - is inconsiderate and an error in judgment on the part of the guide. GUIDING a mega-classic route is different. A guided party of 2-3 is no different than any other party climbing the route.

Hey guys, Its me the guide in question, sorry for the all the drama.
Looking back "Sail away "was a bad choice to do a lead course on the weekend, But to my defense this was day 2 of the course, and we did no ground school at the base of the route( wich would waste time at the base of that classic), we just showed up at 9 ,I lead and set up, and they Basically TR'd the route once each, it took 2 hrs 20 min for the whole event, thats as much time as any normal party of three would take to have someone lead then all memebers of the party climb both "sail away" and "wild wind". I know that is the standard practice for that climb, do both routes while your there .
Once again I apolgize for any inconvienience I may have caused you and your group of friends Gary, I thought we were quite expeditious on the climb , I am just trying to give clients a quality classic experience and train safe leaders.
If the group was any larger than two clients I would never have choosen that site ,too much of a time waster, but I knew that we would be done in a matter of hours.
have fun , climb safe.