Okay, so I'm fresh off Everest Beyond The Limit, with the mountain rendered down to just a tarnished icon of its former stature.

A day later I arrive at Headstone Rock, there a picnic at the base of the approach rocks, 15 people or so. I scramble up to the climbs, there are 2 leaders, one for SW Corner and one for Cryptic. The Cryptic leader says "So - let me tell you what the plan is, we're going to set top-ropes and be here a long time." I'm feeling pretty sick with flu and don't really want a confrontation, so I didn't invoke the new guidebook policy.

Then I start thinking about Everest and what a circus it's become and perhaps JT is destined for the same fate.

Any thoughts?

Should The Park designate "Areas of Commercialism" and leave the rest of it for casual/amateur/non climbing class people?

I've felt that frustration before. But, really, those 'areas' you speak of are already pretty well established: Headstone rock, Trashcan rock, etc... I've never run into a commercial group way out in the Wonderland, nor any group of large size for that matter. Solitude is available, you just have to hike a bit to get away from the circus.

Just out of curiosity, is there some fee to run a commercial enterprise inside of the National Park? If not, maybe there should be.

-T

Commericaly guided groups that are toproping should always yield to recreational lead climbers. I feel like it is just the right thing to do. Good guides should have multiple backup plans of places to take clients. Also good guides should know that beginner climbers will rarely know the difference between classics and no so classic less frequented climbs, and thus chose areas where there probably won't be others.

In relation to the trash I think that the guides have to take it upon themselves to be very very strict on littering and leave no trace practices. New climbers look up to guides and think that whatever they do is okay.

See the forum discussion for Guides in Joshua Tree

When I used to guide we would try to take our client groups to more remote locations. Trad climbing lends itself to an adventuresome experience, rather than gym-like convenience.
Nobody (guided groups or private parties should feel crowded in an area as vast as JT.

This sort of sounds like a fancy mix between previous threads.

One being guided groups in JT hogging up classics and another being a party plopping there rope down right next yours when there are thousands of routes in the park.

It seems as though that discussion will go on forever as to who's
"right" it really is to climb in a given location or a certain route. Guided group or not the rock is in fact there for all of us and if you chose the day to head up to headstone the day jo blo was instructing a course then I would say it's bad luck.

Hit another area. Headstone is home to what, maybe 6 or 7 routes? All bolted and only two of which are moderates. Not an area I would make a fuss over but I understand the point. Grab a racl amd get your solitude. Unfortunately as long as humans walk this earth I do not think there will be a code of conduct in which climbs and areas are deligated to certain groups or climbers. It is all there for anyone who wants to climb it.

Thanks Adam I'll go check out the other post.

It wasn't that I couldn't get to climb, the gent telling me his plan about monopolizing the entire crag for the day was driven by $$$ and not climbing - this is how it relates to Everest - small self-contained alpine style expeditions have no chance of getting on Everest nowadays because everyone is busy making money.

Chris,

I felt that it was headed that way the last few years I have been down to Jtree. However, I spent a week during the holidays in Jtree and ran into two guided groups at popular spots, one at Thin Wall and one in Echo Cove, and I changed my opinion on guiding services in Jtree.

The experience with these two groups was fantastic. Not only did we share routes and anchors, but the guide in Echo Cove taught his group that even though they had top ropes set up on a couple of routes, he likes to let leaders that come along hop on those very routes. He even moved his rope for my partner and I so that we could lead two routes they had top ropes set up on.

Echo Cove and Thin Wall are two great spots that we like to warm up on before we put some air under our feet and head out to other climbs.

It seems that every time a topic like this get posted, there are two different groups that express their opinions. One group states that if you do not like running into loud music playing, novice, top ropers and guided groups then you need to hike an hour from the road to get away from it. The other group says that the park is there for everyone and just deal with it. I am probably part of the first group�s way of thinking; nevertheless, I always meet great people and learn new things every time I visit Jtree.

" A day later I arrive at Headstone Rock, there a picnic at the base of the approach rocks, 15 people or so. I scramble up to the climbs, there are 2 leaders, one for SW Corner and one for Cryptic. The Cryptic leader says "So - let me tell you what the plan is, we're going to set top-ropes and be here a long time."

Sounds like this was a large group of friends , climbing and having fun. Not a case of guides hogging up the terrain. All of the guides I know would not use headstone for a large group. The logistics of getting people up to the climbs is a nightmare , not even worth it for large groups.
I know headstone is a classic , but so does everyone else.Novice leaders flock to that climb, and they like to take thier friends too. That was my first lead ever .

The roadside crags push maximum capacity allmost every weekend.Guides use only a tiny percentage of the available roadside terrain.

As for the "New Guidebook policy" Peoples ropes cannot be removed at a whim or based on thier group size, or leading ability,or how much time you have spent in the park, unless they lay dormant for 30 minutes or so.
If guides have down time in a day , when we are doing instruction or having lunch and the ropes may lay dormant for 20 minutes or so, and a lead follow party arrives at the crag and wants to lead the route , we let them. No problem.
Again, want to avoid crowds ? Go to the wonderland , boy scout , queen mntn, If you want some beta on some fun sunny stuff Ive done recently I would be more than happy to share.
The park is getting full and is only going to get fuller , not much we can do unless we all stop breeding rock climbers.

PS .I would like to know who it was that took 15 people to headstone, so I can bust thier chops for not being able to get a better spot.

Peace to us all.
Happy Climbing.

Thanks Court and Tony for the replies.

Tony, I'm sure it was a class perhaps from LA or somewhere - just the way it was set up. They were instructors, not guides. When someone says "guide" I think of an altogether different kind of beast - but hey I used to climb in the Alps.

If the park gets so full that the private visitor's experience of the wild becomes marred or invalidated in some way, and I'm looking at this holistically; not just climbing, the National Park Service will not hesitate to regulate.

Chris,
The park service gives out lots of permits to all kinds of groups , its pretty easy to get a permit nowadays, even one day events.
Sometimes a little regulation and standardization for those who recieve special use permits , and the
SCOPE IN WICH THEY USE THEM
would be helpful. Outreach is allways a good thing.
Hopefully It will not come down to a shuttle bus permit entry system . Time will tell.
Peace to us all
Happy climbing(in the sun)

Thanks Tony - a shuttle bus would suck.

Yeah it's a fine line between a wilderness experience and being stopped by a uniformed civil servant (and hey I work for NASA) and being asked for my permit. I see the necessity and I'm usually extremely cooperative. Although once I did counter a ranger up at Iceberg Lake when asked if I was going to pack out my poop...

...I said "shall I pack out my farts too?"

She was not happy with that reply.

This just seemed like a good place to "rant" about my recent encounter with a guide (can't recall the name of the outfit, but the guy had a circular patch on his brown shirt).

I was about to run up Toe-Jam in Hidden Valley last Wednesday with a NOOB climber. I had no illusions that I was going to be alone or in a wilderness environment on a super easy climb in the middle of the campground, but...

As I was tying in, a "guide" with lugs in his ears an the excitement of a puppy dog comes up with his client and barks, "Are you guys going to be long?!" I replied that we'd be very quick. He responded in a super-cocky tone, "Good...because I'm fast...REAL FAST...sometimes I don't even stop to place pro." This was, to me, an obvious attempt to intimidate his way to the head of the queue.

He went on in an exaggerated manner: "I'm out here every day...this is my OFFICE...this is where I work!" I told him I was happy for him, and that I only come to JT every weekend, so clearly he's a lucky guy. "That's right," he said, "I get PAID for this."

All this was in front of his client -- Tacky. My partner and I quietly ran up Toe-Jam, enduring this knucklehead's running commentary.

When his client asked for advice while she was climbing, the guide just barked down things like, "C'mon...it's EASY. Part of what you pay me for is to talk smack to you all day. HA!" As he lowered her off, she asked if she should be looking for anything...he said, "Yeah, The GROUND! HAHA!"

WTF??!!

No company is immune from hiring assholes, but WTF?

I'm sure Toe-Jam sees its share of novice (nervous) leaders...I may be Pollianish, but it just seems unethical for a guide to attempt to create a tense environment in such beginner area. Then, there's the issue of teaching his client things like, "sometimes I don't even put in pro!"

At any rate, not much I can do about it...I tried to look up the guide service, but I can't remember the name. It wasn't Bob Gaines outfit...it was some 2nd rate service. Just keep your eyes out for the lug wearing clown who thinks JT is his office.

SS

In response to the email regarding the guide in Joshua Tree. Here is how much the client loved her day...................

Hi,

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you! I flew back to Cleveland saturday and now i am trying to adjust to getting back to work and doing schoolwork!

I had a great time with "anonymity" the other day! Climbing was so much fun and the weather was perfect! He was a very good guide. He is quite knowledgeable about that area and was quick setting up the routes. I climbed 7 routes altogether and that was plenty! I think i wanted to quit at 3:30 or 4:00! I would definitely recommend you outfit to anyone who is going out there.

Take care,
"the client"

Well, that's good to know.

As long as one paying person was happy learning terrible ettiquitte and bad form, then it doesn't really matter how many other people suffered from the guide's bad behavior.

Money was made, the lady climbed 7 routes (!), and a newbie was sent back to Cleveland with a gross impression of our sport...to hell with everyone else.

Sad man, real sad.

She did write a very nice letter, though...frame it.

Well (Randy correct me if I'm wrong) the new guidebook reflects local etiquette, and just plain old good manners; people who want to lead a route which has been monopolized by a group of people who have ropes hanging on that climb for more than a reasonable amount of time should be prepared to allow right of way for the lead climber.

in response to monopolization of routes:
most of the pro guides i know and work with that are using a wall in a group setting for the day, either......
a) give way to lead climbers if the route is not in use
or
b) if people top roping....then let them set up a quick route or to save time use the setup there
it gives me a chance anyway to talk about climbing and have someone doing it that i can use as an example....specially lead climbers....get to talk about the next step in climbing
who cares if i have to wait, gives me a chance to teach about something else
in my 7 years of guiding this has always been the case and have gotten awesome response from all types of climbers (except 1 out of thousands)
guides should be loving and ready to help if needed
.....more info to come as i ponder upon this more :)

You don't have to climb at Joshua Tree for very long to learn that certain routes and areas are best avoided on weekends if you don't want to wait in line. Headstone does offer a couple of spectacular moderates; it has a great summit and a fun, no-hassle rappel. It is understandable that it is popular with both guiding services, traveling climbers as well as locals who want to get new climbers psyched on the sport. Wasn't Headstone even part of the Vertical Adventures logo for years? If your weekend itinerary involves places or climbs like Headstone, Double Cross, the Thin Wall, Sail Away, etc., I've always found it's best to have a back-up plan and not get too set on climbing one particular route--especially if you live within a few hours drive of J Tree. If you've come from 1,000 or more miles away and you simply must climb a certain route on a certain day, then MAYBE it would be appropriate to explain your situation and cut in line between top-ropers. I've done this myself when traveling afar, but personally I can't see myself reminding people of this etiquette when I can just come back some other time and there are thousands of climbs in the park.

Before I begin, I want to preface my comments by saying that I know that running a commercial climbing school on public land is a privilege; I also know that professional guiding carries specific responsibilities--among these are the long-term preservation of the delicate places where guiding is conducted and the respect of other land users with whom we share time and resources.

One aspect of this conversation that I have not heard articulated is that the clients have a right to see and enjoy public places. In fact, since its creation in 1872, the National Park Service has had as its mission the preservation of land "for the benefit and enjoyment of the people."

There are people who would like to climb in Joshua Tree (and who would like to climb some of the "classics" that they hear and read about) who could not do so without the assistance of a professional guide. In this way, guides have the potential to help the Park Service fulfill its Mission.

I know that there are world-class jerks in the guiding community--people who are not meeting their responsibilities as partners with the National Park Service. These individuals ought to have their privileges revoked.

At the same time, I hope that, as a community, climbers will honor the Mission of the Park Service and respect the rights of "clients" who have an earnest and passionate desire to experience the full uniqueness and beauty of Joshua Tree.

Been leading trips in JTree for a number of years, bringing NY kids to CA for Spring Break. I know that my partner and I have always and will always pull a rope aside if asked or even share a line if the climber would like to jump on ours for a run. We understand that we are a sizable group and many people come to JTree to run up and move on to another. We tend to hang out at a wall with MANY climbs for a few hours.
I am astounded that someone brought a group to Headstone for TWO lines for 15 people. What a waist of the class/clients time. Great route but lots of down time, huh.
Also, really ashamed that some guides give guiding a bad rep by not being patient or even being condescending to fellow climbers and/or clients. Everyone is out to have a good time and just because someone is making money, this doesn't give them any extra rights or privileges at a National Park. If someone comes by to climb where I'm climbing, I'll treat him/her as courteously as the client who is paying me. Why not teach climbing ethics in the process of showing your client a good time?
All that being said, there are areas in JTree where you can just expect to run into a group of some sort. Thin Wall, Echo, Atlantis, Dairy Queen some of the roadside stuff. But as long as that group leader isn't an arse, everyone should be able to climb what they hope to climb that day. One exception is if I'm coming in with a group and find a large group there (more than 5), I'll move on and I'd hope other guides would do the same if they found my group there first.

It has been my experience that the vast majority of guides-guiding services that utilize Joshua Tree National Park do a great job of serving their clients and respecting other climbers. The majority of the problems I have witnessed (conflicts and dominating popular crags to the exclusion of anyone else) seem to be groups that are not necessarily clients of a professional guide (eg: School and church groups, and masses of "friends"). It also seems that most guides avoid extremely popular spots for instructional or longer term top-roping sessions.

There are always a few people who guide that don't seem to have the same professionalism exhibited by most schools and services. These are the exception rather than the rule.

As far as the "Guidebook Policy," it is directed to groups (guided or otherwise) that rudely dominate a crag to the exclusion of others. The following text is placed in the guide at the descriptions for a selected few crags that see heavy use by groups:

NOTE ABOUT COURTESY. It is not uncommon for groups and climbing classes to top rope one or more climbs on this rock. If you place a top rope on several routes and leave then up for more than a short time, you must be prepared to either share the ropes with other climbers, or pull them down. Totally dominating this rock with top ropes and then being unwilling to share or pull your ropes is not only extremely rude, but might justify the removal of your ropes. Be courteous instead.

The cited incident of someone setting up TRs for a mass of people on Headstone Rock is exactly the type of rude behavior toward which this "policy" was directed. It is extremely self centered to go to an extremely popular crag/route and then dominate it for the majority of the day to the exclusion of others. It is also a dubious way of getting new climbers introduced to the sport.

Guiding popular routes is not only acceptable, but expected. Guided clients have just as much right to do a perceived "classic" as anyone else.

Thanks Randy - didn't want to plagiarize your work so I was deliberately paraphrasing - perhaps with a skewed affect.

This was a large group - and like I said before, they may have been teaching, but they weren't guiding in any traditional sense of the word.