Soli Deo Gloria 

Climbing really flows nicely on this route. A BD#3 fits great in a horizontal near the top.

Wow, what a fun climb! Great movement and good pro.

Awesome route!!! Big moves on big holds! Felt way pumpier, but still easier than Poseidon

Ryan I think you should lead it before downgrading

I agree with Elliott lead it first. The routes are graded for an onsite lead.....how else would you do it?

i can't believe i'm doing this....

compared to most traditional areas in the US, palisade is soft. LET ME BE CLEAR: I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH PALISADE BEING CONSIDERED A "SOFT" CLIFF. palisade is no gunks. it's no yosemite. it's no seneca rocks or new river gorge. THAT'S COMPLETE FINE. NOT EVERY CRAG HAS TO BE A SAND BAGGING, SOUL CRUSHING AFFAIR.

what's important, though, is that we recognize that 12b at palisade is no where near -- not even in the same ball park, not even the same country! -- as 12b in yosemite (especially on el cap). so, i onsighted soli and OZ and flashed palisaid. does that mean i can do that in the gunks? HELL NO. does that make palisade any less of a crag? HELL NO.

you get me?

Randy, I don't get you at all. The thread had nothing to do with rating comparisons between different areas of the country. Everyone knows they vary and, who cares? Usually, when I can't believe I'm doing something,I shouldn't be. And by the way, congratulations on your flashes and onsights.

dave r., the comment was meant for dave g. i should have addressed it to him or maybe sent it as a private message.

anyway, it's too late for that now, so let me give you some background. dave g. alluded to the subject of grades when he said, "The routes are graded for an onsite lead." over the past few years there has been much discussion of the grades at palisade, with some calling into question the grades of the area and others pushing back, saying the ratings are accurate. in my opinion, the basis for this debate is wrong. this is because routes should not be graded across crags. rather, they should be graded according to other routes at the crag. (this is of course not true in extreme cases -- i.e. calling a barely vert jug haul 5.15a). i understand that my argument may seem self-evident to you, but it may not be so to others.

as for the preface for my comment, i rarely discuss grades. the conversations seldom produce any insights or productive discussion. so, the "i can't believe i'm doing this..." comment was an attempt to pacify any haters. obviously, i failed.

lastly, no congratulations needed. this is the first time, outside of my climbing partners, that i've told anyone about these sends. this shit is nothing. there are 10 year-olds in boulder who i'm sure would warm up on these climbs.

Interesting discussion to stumble upon.

Randy, after perusing some of your ratings, how do you explain the fact that you have downgraded nearly everything at "Barn Bluff" that you have done? This is inconsistent with your philosophy stated above regarding ratings being crag-specific.

I normally try and restraint from being sucked into these posts...i should follow my own advice....lol

I know this route has been cleaned up a bunch after I lead it so maybe i need to go back and do it again. Maybe it is 5.11 now. It stood as a 5.12 since Paul's TR in the late 80's, when I did it I thought it was a/b.

Styles and strenghts also change with time, for an old school trad climber Poseidon adventure would be a lot easier than Soli.

Onsight lead flashes of those routes are impressive! maybe give your climbing skill and training some credit!

I feel Yosemite grades a soft as well....depends were your stenghts lay...

Randy- are you saying you flash-led Palisaid? That is impressive by any standard. Regardless of the place.

holden, touche! my explanation is that i was younger and more stupid when i made those downgrades. :) i went back and changed all the grades to the standard grades. you should also note that i've stopped giving grades for climbs. i just give stars, now.

dave g., i think that you are dead-on when you point out that the climbs at palisade have cleaned-up since their FAs and that has made some of them easier. however, i don't agree with you saying yosemite is soft. all told, i've been to the valley for seven or so trips, all of which anywhere from two-five weeks long. and while i've found a few soft lines, most routes (and boulder problems) were nails, especially the lines on el cap. that's awesome that you climb so well there. you need to teach me your tricks before i go back!

and to all, stop with the congratulations. i have a buddy who onsighted all the 12s, plus palisade, at palisade. he did this more or less in two days. the only rig he didn't try was aching alms, a climb which i think has yet to see a repeat. 5.12 OW is not a very popular style, i guess.