By Spiro
Jul 3, 2011
| Hi,
Looking for information on any special knots to tie in for simul climibing? We are going to use a 60m rope since we have to rap off, any suggestions how to to keep the remaining rope we are not going to use out of our way?
I am looking to do this with my friend, we are going to use it to get mileage in on familiar climbs well below our grade.
Thanks | 
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By Stiles
From the mountains
Jul 3, 2011
| A mountaineers coil is popular for this purpose but involves coiling your rope, which twists the bejeezus out of it. If i dont want 60m of rope tween me and my partner for whatever reason ill tie into both ends and put the other fella in the middle, ala double ropes. A butterfly knot is intended to be used in the middle of the rope--easy to untie and designed for triaxial loading when theres 2+ on one rope. A figure8 on a bight works for tying in w just 2 climbers. Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills auhta be in your library |
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By Scott Bennett
From Colorado, etc
Jul 3, 2011
| Simul-climbing is dangerous, and most climbers experienced enough to try it would not need to ask simple knot questions on the internet.
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But since you asked, here's a system I like:
First, just know that, whatever your system, THE SECOND MUST NOT FALL.
Have the leader tie in as normal. Have the second, tie in at the other end, and then belay with a grigri.
Decide how far apart you'd like to climb. I usually aim for ~30m, which keeps the drag manageable for the leader, and allows for communication.
Have the 2nd coil up the remaining rope diagonally around his or her shoulder (I think some folks call this a Kiwi coil).
So the second should have:
A fig 8 at the end of the rope on their harness (as normal), ~30m of rope coiled around their shoulder, and then a grigri. This way, the 2nd can quickly uncoil a few meters and belay the leader if the leader wants a "real" belay. The 2nd can also take in slack if need be.
Finally, if you're gonna take a pack, or water bottle, jackets, whatever, maybe have the leader carry these things. The 2nd will have enough to deal with...
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Since THE SECOND MUST NOT FALL, you might as well be ropeless. Dealing with the rope and pro is a hassle, so simul-soloing on super easy terrain is sometimes a better option.
The advantage of Roped Simuling, though, is that if you encounter a short, difficult section, you can quickly transition to a normal belay setup.
Good luck and be safe. |
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By Yarp
Jul 3, 2011
| Scott Bennett wrote: Simul-climbing is dangerous, and most climbers experienced enough to try it would not need to ask simple knot questions on the internet
Shoulda stopped right there.
If you have to ask on the internet how to simul-climb you are not ready to simul-climb. |
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By Spiro
Jul 3, 2011
| I appreciate the answers.
Yarp, I had to learn how to climb trad as well, and I asked questions about that. I understand the fundamentals, but want to make sure I'm not missing something. |
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By Wannabe
Jul 3, 2011
| Some very skilled partners of mine use a system that involves the kiwi-coil on the second but also ti-blocs at the gear to avoid the second pulling the leader off in the event of a fall by the second. Read up on the kiwi-coil because it allows you to stack the rope around you without the risk of that same rope choking you. These guys have their sh!t dialed. I do not. So look into it, ask around and see what you can read about it. Sounded like a solution to one of the issues mentioned up post. |
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By Mitch Musci
Jul 3, 2011
| Using tiblocs in a simul climbing situation is pretty dangerous. In an ideal situation, there would be no slack in the system but otherwise you are risking falling forces onto a toothed unit. I knew a guy who climbed with 7 or 8 tiblocs for simul climbing...no thanks! |
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By Yarp
Jul 3, 2011
| Spiro wrote: I appreciate the answers. Yarp, I had to learn how to climb trad as well, and I asked questions about that. I understand the fundamentals, but want to make sure I'm not missing something.
That's cool. Do what you want. Trad climbing shouldn't be learned off the intardweb either.
I hear way to many climbers talking about "simuling"this and that. This is an advanced technique that should only be used by people who actually know what the fuck their doing. I doubt that many people that can say they safely know how to simul climb will tell you that they learned it off the Mountain Proj.
Good luck with that. Yer gunna die. |
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By Chris I
From Fresno, CA
Jul 3, 2011
| Yarp and others. What would you suggest as the appropriate way to learn simuling? It seems like reading up in freedom of the hills is not too different from getting expert opinions online. So is getting a guide or going with someone experienced the only way to go? |
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By FrankPS
From Atascadero, CA
Jul 3, 2011
| Spiro,
Nothing wrong with asking questions. I had a similar experience - comments implying it was dumb to ask a question. These people want nothing more than to feel superior by telling you how weak you are for even asking. It goes without saying that the Internet is just one of many components in learning. Climbing with experienced climbers, hiring a guide, reading, etc are the other components.
Ask the question, consider the advice, and discard the trash. Easy enough! |
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By justin dubois
From Estes Park
Jul 3, 2011
| take a 60m half rope, fold it in half, Tie in at one end,clip in with TWO lockers in the middle.
When the rope comes tight, climb. oh yeah don't fall |
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By Mark Wyss
From Denver, CO
Jul 3, 2011
| Yarp wrote: Good luck with that. Yer gunna die.
Jesus...was that really necessary? |
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By alleyehave
Jul 3, 2011
| ichris wrote: It seems like reading up in freedom of the hills is not too different from getting expert opinions online.
Really? I don't even...
Okay, i'm an expert at preparing blowfish, want my recipe? |
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By John Maguire
From Boulder, CO
Jul 3, 2011
| Yarp wrote: That's cool. Do what you want. Trad climbing shouldn't be learned off the intardweb either. I hear way to many climbers talking about "simuling"this and that. This is an advanced technique that should only be used by people who actually know what the fuck their doing. I doubt that many people that can say they safely know how to simul climb will tell you that they learned it off the Mountain Proj. Good luck with that. Yer gunna die.
dick |
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By Brendan Blanchard
From Strafford, NH
Jul 4, 2011
| Yarp wrote: That's cool. Do what you want.
You should have stopped there before you dropped into insulting criticism and stark elitism.
Feel free to tell someone what they're doing is dangerous, but people don't come to forums to hear that. I'd like to think that most people who ask questions on this site can take a variety of answers and use them to come to an informed decision. Maybe that decision is to become more experienced before trying it, but that's their decision to make. |
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By Glenn Schuler
From Monument, Co.
Jul 4, 2011
| That's what is so cool about the MP community alleyehave, we know that Scott gets out there and just plain gets shit done. So when he throws out some words of wisdom, it's worth listening.
You on the other hand are just an anonymous shit talking troll so no one listens to you. See how that works? |
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By Jonathan D.
From Durango, CO
Jul 4, 2011
| alleyehave wrote: Really? I don't even... Okay, i'm an expert at preparing blowfish, want my recipe?
"C'mon pal, FUGU ME!!" |
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By alleyehave
Jul 4, 2011
| Glenn Schuler wrote: That's what is so cool about the MP community alleyehave, we know that Scott gets out there and just plain gets shit done. So when he throws out some words of wisdom, it's worth listening. You on the other hand are just an anonymous shit talking troll so no one listens to you. See how that works?
WHY are you giving me the time of day?
PS: It went way over your head. |
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By Yarp
Jul 4, 2011
| ichris wrote: Yarp and others. What would you suggest as the appropriate way to learn simuling?
I don't know...maybe simul climbing with someone who knows how to do it and is willing to show you hands on how it's done? Seemed to work pretty good for me and several others I know but I'm sure reading a vague description of simuling off the internet from a total stranger is just as good. Learning the skills from a mentor is so 1990's. I understand. |
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By Chris Plesko
From Westminster, CO
Jul 4, 2011
| It pays to know enough book learn'n to know if yer mentor is full of crap |
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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Jul 4, 2011
| ichris wrote: Yarp and others. What would you suggest as the appropriate way to learn simuling? It seems like reading up in freedom of the hills is not too different from getting expert opinions online. So is getting a guide or going with someone experienced the only way to go?
I think the point that people are trying to make is that if you don't understand the basics of simul-climbing before thinking of trying it then you probably just don't have enough climbing experience to do it. Sure you can read up and ask questions online, but you can't "learn" online.
Before I ever simul climbed anything, I understood the basics of how it's done and what can and cannot happen. I had a pretty good idea of how much rope I'd want between me and my partner, how we would manage the remainder of the rope, and how to stay set up for a quick belay if we came to an area that it was appropriate. I didn't learn any of that from a book or the internet. I learned it from talking with more experienced climbers and using my past experiences on multi-pitch routes. I also sat and thought pretty hard about exactly how it would work and how we would handle any number of different situations that could come up while simul climbing. If you can't figure out 90 percent of the answers on your own then you aren't ready to do it. If you can, then you will get a much better response to questions about the last 10%.
This kind of question would be totally appropriate:
My partner and I will be attempting (insert alpine ridge here) and want to simul part of it but we don't want to solo much because there will be sections that we need to belay and want to be set up for that. What are your experiences using a tibloc every 15 meters to keep the leader safe in event of a second falling? We've simuled together (on easy climbs that we know well) for practice, but never used tiblocs. Is it worth the hassle or should we just stick to the usual?... the second CANNOT FALL!
Also, thinking of ditching the gri gri for an ATC, and just tying it off once the second wants to start climbing. I assume if I tie the normal mule/hitch knot that can be released under a load then it would be fine. Any one do this?
Thanks!
But the OP asked this:
Looking for information on any special knots to tie in for simul climibing? We are going to use a 60m rope since we have to rap off, any suggestions how to to keep the remaining rope we are not going to use out of our way?
I am looking to do this with my friend, we are going to use it to get mileage in on familiar climbs well below our grade.
Thanks
It is obvious that the OP has not thought hard enough about what he needs to do, nor has he made any attempt to research the subject on his own. |
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By Spiro
Jul 4, 2011
| Yes, I am asking novice questions about something that is not familiar to me. I will take all the information and combine it with all the other info I find and make an informed decision on whether to do it or not. I do appreciate the advice that has been given, normally I find these forums informative.
On that note, if you have something constructive to say, I am open to listen. Otherwise, shut up, I understand the danger, never did I say I was going to run out and do it with the info found here. |
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By Monty
From Morrison, Co
Jul 4, 2011
| I do like Scott's Kiwi Coil idea. I've also heard of people using ropemans, or mintraxions on some pieces to help keep the leader from dying if the second would fall... but you just really shouldn't fall. |
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By Greg D
From Here
Jul 4, 2011
| Ryan Williams wrote: I think the point that people are trying to make is that if you don't understand the basics of simul-climbing before thinking of trying it then you probably just don't have enough climbing experience to do it. Sure you can read up and ask questions online, but you can't "learn" online. Before I ever simul climbed anything, I understood the basics of how it's done and what can and cannot happen. I had a pretty good idea of how much rope I'd want between me and my partner, how we would manage the remainder of the rope, and how to stay set up for a quick belay if we came to an area that it was appropriate. I didn't learn any of that from a book or the internet. I learned it from talking with more experienced climbers and using my past experiences on multi-pitch routes. I also sat and thought pretty hard about exactly how it would work and how we would handle any number of different situations that could come up while simul climbing. If you can't figure out 90 percent of the answers on your own then you aren't ready to do it. If you can, then you will get a much better response to questions about the last 10%. This kind of question would be totally appropriate: My partner and I will be attempting (insert alpine ridge here) and want to simul part of it but we don't want to solo much because there will be sections that we need to belay and want to be set up for that. What are your experiences using a tibloc every 15 meters to keep the leader safe in event of a second falling? We've simuled together (on easy climbs that we know well) for practice, but never used tiblocs. Is it worth the hassle or should we just stick to the usual?... the second CANNOT FALL! Also, thinking of ditching the gri gri for an ATC, and just tying it off once the second wants to start climbing. I assume if I tie the normal mule/hitch knot that can be released under a load then it would be fine. Any one do this? Thanks! But the OP asked this: Looking for information on any special knots to tie in for simul climibing? We are going to use a 60m rope since we have to rap off, any suggestions how to to keep the remaining rope we are not going to use out of our way? I am looking to do this with my friend, we are going to use it to get mileage in on familiar climbs well below our grade. Thanks It is obvious that the OP has not thought hard enough about what he needs to do, nor has he made any attempt to research the subject on his own.
This lengthy post is just silly. A novice asks a question in his own words based on his own knowledge. You tell him he should have asked some totally detailed question involving terms and techniques he doesn't even know in order to get a positive response. Who are you to tell anybody what an "appropriate" question is!?
Just plain silly.
Also, don't double up single ropes as suggested earlier. You nearly double the forces in the event of a fall, unless you clip only one lead rope. But, then you need to be sure you clipped the one you are being belayed on.
Go with Scott Bennett's advice. |
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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Jul 4, 2011
| Greg D wrote: This lengthy post is just silly. A novice asks a question in his own words based on his own knowledge. You tell him he should have asked some totally detailed question involving terms and techniques he doesn't even know in order to get a positive response. Who are you to tell anybody what an "appropriate" question is!? Just plain silly. Also, don't double up single ropes as suggested earlier. You nearly double the forces in the event of a fall. Go with Scott Bennett's advice.
Actually Greg, I didn't respond to the OP and certainly didn't tell him that he should have asked a better question. I simply stated that the reason he is getting this kind of response is because it is obvious he hasn't done any research on his own.
If he wanted to start a productive discussion then he should have come to the table with as much knowledge as possible. I was only giving an example of what I'd expect from someone who has seriously considered using this method of climbing.
But I suppose since it has my name next to the post, you view it as silly. Fine with me, but let's not pretend that you didn't notice who wrote that long silly post before you decided to respond. I'm sure everyone appreciates your respone much more than mine. |
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By waltereo
Jul 4, 2011
| When simul climbing , the stronger climber ALWAYS climb as the second , that way the chance of the second falling will be smaller since the second NEVER fall |
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