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By usernameremoved
Apr 3, 2010

Non redundancy for the loss. Sure up that bottom bolt anchor and it would be a lot better, IMO. I have zero experience with the SP, so my advice stops there.


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By John McNamee
Administrator
From Littleton, CO
Apr 3, 2010
Artist Tears P3

The screamer is incorporated into a bite of rope from the powerpoint. By the time the screamer has deployed fully, the stress is then on the rope.

I tried the slip not idea posted earlier in the thread but I got a hell of a fright when jugging and the knot pulled. Double length spectra slings and rubber bands work best.

Andy, I sent you an email.


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By David Tapp
From Johannesburg, South Africa
Apr 6, 2010
Evil Penguin - take two

Hello everyone,

I found this discussion while looking for info on the Silent Partner. My SP is currently on its way to me in Johannesburg where I intend to use it for aid in establishing a new crag here - TR new lines - and for just for getting out on the rock when I have nobody to go with.

I have heard a lot about the manual being old, etc. but haven't seen a link to it so everyone can check it out.

The manual is here:

www.bmi.gv.at/cms/BMI_Alpindienst/service/files/WREN_Silent_>>>


I'm really looking forward to using the silent partner and am very grateful to the contributors here. I have got more useful info from this thread than anywhere else on the web, including the SP instruction manual which doesn't offer many tips on roped solo climbing, so thanks people.

FYI I have also ordered a Metolius Waldo big wall/rigging harness which I think will be useful as it has two belay loops (helpful for racking biners in an ordered way etc.), rated gear loops and haul loop and also is super padded for spending long periods hanging in the harness while bolting etc. It's not a great all-round harness as it's BIG but it might have advantages for the self-sufficient solist.

www.metoliusclimbing.com/safe-tech_waldo.html

Thanks again for the lively discussion!!


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By David Tapp
From Johannesburg, South Africa
Apr 6, 2010
Evil Penguin - take two

Here's a photo which shows a Screamer used in roped solo climbing. You can see the loop of rope which allows the Screamer to extend before the rope takes the strain:


Screamer used in rope solo
Screamer used in rope solo


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By John Shultz
From Osaka, Japan
Apr 6, 2010
Above the beautifully positioned routes at Makapuu. Oahu, HI.

Right on. Nice picture; it answers the question above.

I do think Mountain Project has become the most useful current web resource for use of the Silent Partner. Maybe we should make a Silent Parter master thread.

Cheers from Osaka,

john


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By Kal Efa
Jul 3, 2010

saxfiend wrote:
Rich Goldstone has a nifty solution to the re-belay problem. Instead of anchoring the rope to a piece of pro with prusik or klemheist, he ties a slipknot in the rope just above the piece. The slipknot then rests on the biner you used to clip in to the pro, keeping the rope from back-feeding, but allowing it to travel up in case of a fall. JL


interesting though someone here already had the experience of it passing the carabiner it looks like.

I saw someone else with another possible way on rc.com
www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2330548

excerpt:
>>
Here's a sweet trick for equalizing the anchor-side rope weight. Whenever there's too much weight on the anchor-side, pull up as much rope as you can until it's almost taut against the screamer and then clip a free biner into the rope twice just above the last draw. Make sure the rope is now wrapped around the spine of the free biner. Ideally, the free biner should be a bit bigger than the draw biner so it doesn't slip through.
>>

The klemheist is also a good idea, I've just been using rubber bands as a pruisk.

I think I may try the carabiner wrap or slipknot on casual pitches. With all these though I always use a locking carabiner at this point because I don't like anything possibly opening the gate, maybe I'm the only one paranoid about that since it's not mentioned.


One question, what's the reasoning behind using a screamer at the anchor so often when using the SP? I understand of course it's decreasing load on the anchor at the expense of increasing fall distance.

However it seems like you would only use this if you really didn't trust the anchor. I think not trusting your anchor when rope soloing is going to be an outside case, I probably wouldn't do the climb if I couldn't build a solid ground anchor...and if I have a solid ground anchor I'm probably not going to use a screamer because I don't want to increase fall distance...

I've never fallen on a screamer, I think they normally kick in at about 4kn? So is it just that you can take short falls on the screamer and it won't deploy but if you ever really take a good one, it's there for you?

Or maybe it's just a case of those using it in wall / multi pitch circumstances, where you can fall further and have to deal with what' at the belay station for your anchor... vs just using it for single pitch cragging.

thanks


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By Chris Plesko
From Westminster, CO
Dec 31, 2010
OMG, I winz!!!

A couple people in this thread mention backup knots on their harness gear loops instead of the belay loop. Is that a type-o, are you using a rated gear loop harness or are you assuming that if the SP didn't catch you'd rip the loop but the clove/biner would jam the SP and stop the fall?

For those of you that are aiding, are your daisies and your SP attached to your harness tie ins or is some stuff on the belay loop? With cloves and the daisies attached to my tie in points there is already a lot of cluster, i'm not sure how 2 more big biners through the tie ins would work. The SP seems infinitely better than leapfrogging/adjusting clove hitches, esp if you need or can get out of the aiders to speed things up.


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By Kevin Landolt
From Fort Collins, Wyoming
Dec 31, 2010

Chris,

While solo-aiding with a grigri I girth-hitch my daisies and fifi through my belay loop all together, so all the webbing forms a single thick girth-hitch. I then clip my grigri to my belay loop below the girth-hitch. A very light (and breakable) bungy cord clipped to your lower leg loop, then wrapped around the free end of your rope in an autoblock (between grirgi and back up knot) works well to ensure easy feeding for the gri-gri.

I clip my backup knots to my gear loops, because I'm trusting the knot to stop any fall the gri-gri doesn't hold - not the gear loop. While jugging I do clip backup knots to my belay loop.


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By Chris Plesko
From Westminster, CO
Dec 31, 2010
OMG, I winz!!!

Kevin Landolt wrote:
I clip my backup knots to my gear loops, because I'm trusting the knot to stop any fall the gri-gri doesn't hold - not the gear loop. While jugging I do clip backup knots to my belay loop.


Just to be clear, you're trusting the backup knots while climbing to physically jam the gri gri and arrest the fall if the gri gri fails to cam? Don't you think that setup will rip your gear loop off in a fall? I suppose that doesn't matter as long as your fall is still stopped by the knot but it would damage the harness.

I don't have a grigri (only a cinch) so I've been using cloves for now. However since being self sufficient is fun (for me anyway) the SP seems like the long term best solution. I've read through the manual a few times but I'm trying to reconcile the real world setups mentioned in this thread with the manual method. Rope soloing is an attempt by me to minimize free soloing and still be able to get out alone on long routes.


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By Kevin Landolt
From Fort Collins, Wyoming
Dec 31, 2010

Correct - I've got faith in the grigri. I hope the back-up knots are just a precaution. I do not rack gear on the gear loops I use to clip back-up knots to. The grigri works really well for solo-aid. I've played around with a buddy's silent partner and was impressed with it's smooth feeding - it would be great for free climbing.


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By John McNamee
Administrator
From Littleton, CO
Dec 31, 2010
Artist Tears P3

Chris,

If you are taking about free climbing and not aid, Just throw the rope into a small pack Much easier than dealing with all the loops, etc. The rope will come out of the pack over your shoulder and down into the SP. You can still have backup knots.

For aid you have plenty of time to deal with loops, etc.

Cheers

john

PS: Unless it is like C3+ I don't use daisies to keep things simple. Otherwise there is a lot of junk hanging around. Much faster as well.


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By Chris Plesko
From Westminster, CO
Dec 31, 2010
OMG, I winz!!!

John

I'm interested in both free and aid with the SP. With the rope in a backpack do you just pre-tie cloves on lockers and flake the whole rope in the pack or are you actually putting backup knots on your belay loop as the SP manual suggests?

With straight aid the backup loops are much easier to manage but I was still curious why people were talking about them on the gear loop instead of belay loop up thread.

No daisies huh? I'm not sure i'm comfortable enough in my ladders for that yet!


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By Kevin Landolt
From Fort Collins, Wyoming
Dec 31, 2010

Chris, clipping the backup knots to your belay loop = a cluster. It sucks climbing with a bunch of loops of rope hanging between your legs, snagging on placed gear below, snagging your aiders, snagging your feet, etc... Having the loops off to the side is much, much more streamlined and leads to faster, better climbing. Ditching the daisies on easy aid is definately faster. Ditching the fifi is also a good idea - it's easy to get into that hang on every peice mindset.


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By John McNamee
Administrator
From Littleton, CO
Dec 31, 2010
Artist Tears P3

Chris,

You'll only drop your aiders once. Much faster way to aid. No cluster. Learn to stand in balance and use your legs, rather than pulling yourself up. Have you watched clean walls?

I just tie overhand knots in the lead line prior to stacking it in the pack. If the SP failed, which it has never to this point the overhead knots would jam.

I'll send you some stuff next week when I get back to Denver and have a fast internet connection.

Cheers

John


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By Chris Plesko
From Westminster, CO
Dec 31, 2010
OMG, I winz!!!

Thanks John. Any info is appreciated. I see now that you're just working on the knot jam theory which I suspected but wanted to know if that was for sure. The backpack is certainly the way to go for free climbing. I have a small pack that works fine for that.

I'll have to unhitch my aiders from my daisies and see how it goes. What happens if you blow a piece that isn't clipped in? I might need a belayer for that at first. I don't fifi so when futzing with the clove hitches solo it's really handy to sit on the daisy if I need my hands. I also try not to cinch my daisy at all when climbing unless I really need it. However when it's awkward or bulging or funky for whatever reason the adj daisy seems to get cinched up and I slow down. I used boots and gloves for the first time the other day too. Saved my hands but made it a little harder to free climb.

Really though I just need more practice at aid as I'm inexperienced. Soloing country club the other day was perfect but proved just how slow I am still.


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By John McNamee
Administrator
From Littleton, CO
Dec 31, 2010
Artist Tears P3

Before a piece is weighted it is tested so I'm holding onto it. It's not going to blow suddenly unless I didn't test it!

When it's awkward or overhanding I'll use one adjustable and one standard daisy, but 99 percent of the time I don't use daisies. Even on gently overhanding routes like Artist tears there is no need for a daisy.

Also, don't expect to go fast until you have logged a lot of miles.


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By eric harvey
Dec 31, 2010

Woah Woah Woah,

When you say "It's not going to blow suddenly unless I didn't test it!", this is not true. Almost every fall I have taken aiding was a piece that I had tried to pull out by bouncing on it and had been standing on for a bit.


As for daisies being good:
On the first pitch of Artist Tears I was at the second or third empty angle hole. My hook blew out the bottom of the hole and I fell onto the hook (which was attached to me with a daisy) that I had just (as in a second before) placed in the next empty hole. It held.

I am real glad that it held because a fall for 25 feet down a slab to decking would suck.


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By shockalot
Aug 3, 2011

I bought a new 10.2 dry rope exlusively for use with the silent partner, and I was shocked to find that the clove hitch on the silent partner (used as directed) would not cynch, the drum on the device did, but the rope on the clove hitch just slipped and WOULD NOT BIND!!!. Then I got my fryaed 10.5 and it worked well, I am curious, did anyone else have this kind of problem? the manuel says a supple new 10.2 will work well, so I suppose the new eidellweiess rope I got is a little stiff, perhaps the "suppleness" is the key word. I am very glad I decided to test this out before I tied in...

So since leading some with the 10.5 I love the SP. The only issue that I want to figure out, is how to make the top rope feed better for the few feet when I am leading and make a clip over the waistline, this is important to me because there is already enogh slack in the syestem, and to be able to have the rope reel in as I climb to the piece I just cliped would feel much more secure than dealing with a few feet of extra slack until I climb above the piece, especially with a ledge below. anyone have any suggestions? thanks


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By shockalot
Aug 10, 2011

another problem is the clove hitch tightening from climbing above a clip that is down and to the right -- assuming the live end is feeding out of the left side of the device. i am convicnced a swivel made for climbing/rescue purposes would eliminate this issue. swivel such as this one has a breaking point of 36kn... would 36kn be sufficiant to hold a leader fall? the obvious disadvantage of using a swivel syestem is that the swivel is the weak link, and difficult to back up.


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By phil456
Sep 17, 2012

S.P.L.T. Image wrote:
. Agreed, I could tie off both of the first two bolts, even better would be a unidirectional trad anchor at the bottom. This vid was not the first time I intentionally whipped on the SP. I took falls with TR back ups at first. Besides, anyone who has ever trad climbed has relied on one piece of gear alot. I'm not saying this set up is best or even safe. I'm asking for ways to improve it and that's what I've been getting thus far. Thank you for contributing.



I used this resourse to get started with my SP and have returned because of problems building a sufficient ground anchor; the post about the single bolt indoors has got me thinking as to what is actually needed in a ground anchor. Untill now I have just worked on the basis of a top rope anchor being at least two points of protection totalling ABOVE 17 kn (3820 lbs); for safety above say 25kn (5620 lbs ); my theory is that at around 10kn (2240 lbs) force at the climber he/she will be lucky not to have internal injuries. So 10kn (2240 lbs) at the climber works out at 17kn (3820 lbs) for the top rope anchor ( or last pieces of protection ) and had forgotten that it is about 7kn (1570 lbs ) at the belayer.
Using the SP, the ground anchor force would be the same as the belayer, so placing two nuts each capable of say holding 5kn (1120 lbs ) each should be adequate. Thats two mighty small nuts and I have walked away from routes with far more strong ground anchors. There is the problem that the rock may blow before the gear fails, ie the gear is rated at 5kn ( 1120 lbs) but the rock rips at 2kn (449 lbs ).
So my question is for those with experiance is what is the minimum you would use to build a safe ground anchor when using your SP outdoor trad climbing ?

(Forces copied from) www.southeastclimbing.com/faq/faq_pulley.htm
Warning ! theories may be complete rubbish, thats why I am asking.
Thanks for reading
Cheers
Phil ( from the UK )


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By Tradoholic
Sep 17, 2012

phil456 wrote:
I used this resourse to get started with my SP and have returned because of problems building a sufficient ground anchor; the post about the single bolt indoors has got me thinking as to what is actually needed in a ground anchor. Untill now I have just worked on the basis of a top rope anchor being at least two points of protection totalling ABOVE 17 kn (3820 lbs); for safety above say 25kn (5620 lbs ); my theory is that at around 10kn (2240 lbs) force at the climber he/she will be lucky not to have internal injuries. So 10kn (2240 lbs) at the climber works out at 17kn (3820 lbs) for the top rope anchor ( or last pieces of protection ) and had forgotten that it is about 7kn (1570 lbs ) at the belayer. Using the SP, the ground anchor force would be the same as the belayer, so placing two nuts each capable of say holding 5kn (1120 lbs ) each should be adequate. Thats two mighty small nuts and I have walked away from routes with far more strong ground anchors. There is the problem that the rock may blow before the gear fails, ie the gear is rated at 5kn ( 1120 lbs) but the rock rips at 2kn (449 lbs ). So my question is for those with experiance is what is the minimum you would use to build a safe ground anchor when using your SP outdoor trad climbing ? (Forces copied from) www.southeastclimbing.com/faq/faq_pulley.htm Warning ! theories may be complete rubbish, thats why I am asking. Thanks for reading Cheers Phil ( from the UK )


Phil, since the OP I have used the SP on many outdoor single pitches. I built a 3-point upward pointing anchor plus one more piece to hold the anchor up from sagging.

As for your numbers, rope stretch will adequtely lessen the load on the anchor. A screamer on the master point will make sure of that. One bomber piece could be safe for an anchor but better to add in more and equalize. This winter I will run a whipper test in JTree and take some pics and vid to share.

I think being safe with an SP is more about philisophy then science. I would only climb things that I'm fairly sure I won't fall on because a SP, no matter the set up, will never be as good as a real belayor not to mention that I'm alone with no one to run for help. For example, I will solo 5.7 anyday and the SP allows me to climb 5.9 confidently but I'm a solid 5.10 trad climber.


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By Kevin Stricker
From Evergreen, CO
Sep 20, 2012

johnnyrig wrote:
Concerning rebelays to take rope weight, seems to me the problem with clove hitching the draw would be that you face the possibility of a FF2 until you place the next piece. Otherwise, why not use a long sling and maybe a screamer ? Just picked up a SP myself, have yet to try it.


A clove hitch on a long sling will allow the rope below the clove hitch to absorb some of the force of the fall (4' of rope stretch) assuming you have put another piece in above the rebelay. If I am concerned about a F2 I will clip directly into the piece, which will decrease the fall factor slightly. It will limit the rope stretch available (with the rope below the rebelay)to the distance between the clove hitch and the upper biner.

The general rule is NOT to use slings unless absolutely necessary as the added friction will prevent or at least decrease the necessity of using a rebelay. Also you need to consider the weight of rope on each side of the SP for it to perform the best. At the beginning of the pitch there will be little rope weight on the anchor side, so you need to use a short loop to your backup knot. At the end of the pitch the rope weight will be much more, so it becomes necessary to use a bigger loop to balance the weight.

With practice you should be able to get your rope solo levels near your regular lead level depending on your mental state. Some pitches would be next to impossible to lead with a partner. Where you are struggling with rope drag up the last 30 feet of a pitch, when soloing you have the least rope challenges at the end of your pitches. Imagine climbing the Diamond in three 70m pitches or the Cynical Pinnacle in two. Although rope soloing adds a whole new complexity to leading, it also brings a freedom that is hard to top.

BTW I do not endorse the unorthodox use of the SP as shown by the OP in his video. It is easy to use the device as directed and gives the safest results. I will often anchor to a single bolt, then pull the rope tight and clove a draw into the second as an anchor on a bolted climb. Trees and large rocks are also your friends, so bring some cord. I get good results with a dry treated 9.7, stiffer ropes feed better than soft ones. I do only use a single backup knot unless I know I will be climbing through a crux section that will make tying a second knot difficult to impossible. The more loops you have dangling from your harness the better chance you will get your rope stuck. I prefer to leave my rope at the belay and only climb with the rope needed, rope soloing is difficult enough, having your entire rope on your back is going to make any pitch several grades harder.

Haven't we had these discussions in the past on this site? I am feeling déjà vu.


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By Tradoholic
Sep 20, 2012

It's been talked ad nauseam. Truth is that it will never be 100% safe, but neither is a human belayor. I like to make it as simple as possible as there's enough to think about while climbing in the first place.

Also to note is that the piece you would clove hitch to keep off rope weight would have to be upward oriented, since it will be pulled that direction, maybe a mini anchor with two pieces and a sliding X?


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By Kevin Stricker
From Evergreen, CO
Sep 21, 2012

S.P.L.T. Image wrote:
Also to note is that the piece you would clove hitch to keep off rope weight would have to be upward oriented, since it will be pulled that direction, maybe a mini anchor with two pieces and a sliding X?


Not really. The piece you clove to pretension could be a worthless stopper, it's only job is to hold up the rope and keep the anchor properly oriented so as to avoid cross loading carabiners and shock loading pieces with funky sideways forces. The lower upwards oriented pieces are the true anchor, although that first piece could be the only thing that keeps you from decking if you fall low so that should be considered as well.

BTW the thing I felt you were really missing in your video is the lack of a backup knot. It is important in keeping rope weight off the drum, as that will cinch down the clove and give you rope drag. If you always balance rope weight on either side of the drum you will climb with zero drag( obviously easier to visualize than achieve but still possible).


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By phil456
Sep 21, 2012

S.P.L.T. Image wrote:
As for your numbers, rope stretch will adequtely lessen the load on the anchor. A screamer on the master point will make sure of that. One bomber piece could be safe for an anchor but better to add in more and equalize.


The screamer is a good idea, I will get one for a marginal ground anchor.

S.P.L.T. Image wrote:
This winter I will run a whipper test in JTree and take some pics and vid to share.

Thats brave :-)) looking forward to the vid.

S.P.L.T. Image wrote:
will never be as good as a real belayor not to mention that I'm alone with no one to run for help. For example, I will solo 5.7 anyday and the SP allows me to climb 5.9 confidently but I'm a solid 5.10 trad climber.


Agreed, but I do like the peace quite and above all the time for gear and feet placement.
Cheers Phil


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