Sign - Sign - everywhere a Sign (route length & info signage)
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The ?reopening? of The Catslab and the suggestion of the use of Dog Tags (or other signage) has created a bit of controversy. The sign would be similar to the ones at: Little Eiger, First Flatiron, Third Flatiron and the Red Ledge rappel anchor in Eldo. These all provide information on rappel/lowering distance to reduce accidents or rescues. |
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My opinion is that they can be minimally intrusive, not more visible than a bolt, and should be used in popular areas with routes that exceed ~75' in length. This could provide a double safety check, but obviously would not prevent accidents. Safe climbing practices (knots in rope ends, harness&knot checks, route research, etc) are the only way to make climbing safer (although it will NEVER be "SAFE"). |
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I think the difference between the Flatirons/Red Ledge signage and the proposed dog tags at the start of a route are that they are DESCENT lengths, ones that you may not have climbed up to and may be unaware of the distance down. I don't think they can be compared to what is proposed because they serve a completely different purpose. |
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Caveat Emptor. |
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Just another opinion. |
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It's a tough one...personal responsibility is pretty key in climbing, but at the same time I don't really care to see anybody die simply because they made a mistake on a climbing route. Yeah, it's a dangerous sport and no I don't think we should dumb down everything to make it safe, but not everyone has a 70m or a guide book. My friend has personally stopped several parties from rapping off the back of the First Flatiron. Without a guidebook who would know that you have to traverse 15ft climber's left. All they see are rappel anchors. |
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Climbing areas should be fenced off and policed to prevent unauthorized access. |
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Scott wrote: "And Tom....try to remember that if Nature weeds out the dumb ones, I'm sure some of your friends and family would get caught in that net. I know mine would!! It's not our call to decide who is "dumber" than us or "weaker". |
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Tom Hanson wrote:Scott wrote: "And Tom....try to remember that if Nature weeds out the dumb ones, I'm sure some of your friends and family would get caught in that net. I know mine would!! It's not our call to decide who is "dumber" than us or "weaker". Yeah, you got me there. Intelligence must have very little to do with longevity in the sport, as evidenced by my thirty-nine years of participation.Yeah, I guess I lumped myself into the "smart ones" group...Not sure if I meant or have the right to do that!! |
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Don't put up tags. |
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This is really one of those discussions that doesn't have a clear cut answer. |
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I would vote against adding tags to the base of routes. |
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Casey Bernal wrote:This post was originally a comment in ?? I think it is kinda obvious that no one here is recommending dog tags for routes on any other crag - just Catslab was mentioned. Since this crag is a well known beginner moderate crag, it would seem most appropriate at THIS CRAG.What you do at one crag will eventually be done at another. If climbers get the idea that 'A' is common practice, then it will either happen at other crags, or it won't. If it does, then there you have it, it does. If it doesn't, then the expectation that it has is BAD NEWS. Because someone will presume that the length is OK for lack of a tag and it will not be. Most people here are probably picking their interpretation of the probability of the differing potential consequences dependent upon what they want the outcome to be for themselves. I'm rather indifferent to it. The tags never bothered me, but it could be a problem if they set unrealistic expectaitons on other climbs or get removed, which some will if they are contentious. Decide wisely. |
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Brad Brandewie wrote:I would vote against adding tags to the base of routes.+1 tony also has some good points. imo if you can't do a little research before a climb -stay in the gym |
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slim wrote:What did people do before guidebooks? To say that people shouldn't wander around without guidebooks is like saying people shouldn't have left their cozy caves.Anyone who was climbing before there were guidebooks should have (and mostly did) known enough not to assume they could get down on a single rope. I agree with Tony that having different conventions for different crags like this could confuse people. |
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Please no signs and no tags. Keep it simple. Buy a guide book, send some money to the access fund and use mp.com! |
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Many of you say don't put up tags. |
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I think every bolt should have a dog tag with pertinent information such as: which way to face the gate when you clip, how many clips remaining, distance to the next bolt, distance of potential fall on the bit to the next bolt, possible cruxes ahead, excuses for existing next to a crack, discussion of the need for care when climbing, explanation for the condition of the climbers undies, etc... you know useful stuff; things you need to be aware of before you clip into a bolt. |
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I could take or leave the tags. It doesn't bother me either way. I haven't bothered to read most of the ones at Little Eiger. |
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Stich wrote:Many of you say don't put up tags. I say don't put anchors too high for a single 60 meter rope to get you down. If that were done, no tags would ever be necessary. But alas, sometimes a natural ledge is just another 15 feet and there you are, too long for a single rope rappel. In those cases, I say put a tag. Pretty specific situation.Where does this end though? Would we then go around retro-tagging any and all routes that are over 30 meters? Are we going to tag every rappel anchor that requires two ropes, no matter where it exists? What about sporty routes in say the S. Platte? I understand not wanting to see people get hurt out there, but might we be setting people up for failure if they come to believe that no tag means they needn't worry about rope length? Relying on others for your safety is bad news. In my opinion we should be discussing how to convince people to tie stopper knots. |
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Mike Morin wrote: Where does this end though?Oh, I forgot. Someone has to have died on the route due to it being unexpectedly too long for a single rope. This particular route qualifies. Would that be OK then? |