Mountain Project Logo

Sign - Sign - everywhere a Sign (route length & info signage)

Original Post
Casey Bernal · · Wheat Ridge, CO · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 215

The ?reopening? of The Catslab and the suggestion of the use of Dog Tags (or other signage) has created a bit of controversy. The sign would be similar to the ones at: Little Eiger, First Flatiron, Third Flatiron and the Red Ledge rappel anchor in Eldo. These all provide information on rappel/lowering distance to reduce accidents or rescues.

Please use this forum to express facts and opinions on the use of these.

Casey Bernal · · Wheat Ridge, CO · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 215

My opinion is that they can be minimally intrusive, not more visible than a bolt, and should be used in popular areas with routes that exceed ~75' in length. This could provide a double safety check, but obviously would not prevent accidents. Safe climbing practices (knots in rope ends, harness&knot checks, route research, etc) are the only way to make climbing safer (although it will NEVER be "SAFE").

A recurring theme I see it the idea of "dumbing down the crag". Am I correct in recognizing that this idea is based on the assumption: people will become nonchalant about the safety aspect of climbing when provided route information while on a climb? Or possibly relying on this information will be posted elsewhere?

Has this assumption been proven with accidents or close-calls? If so, who is to blame: land managers, climbing organizations, climbing gyms, overconfident noobs, naive mentors, people-who-make-a-mistake? Has there ever been a link to the signage posted elsewhere and accidents? Have out-of-date guidebooks also been linked to accidents?

As a devil's advocate to this assumption, could one also not assume that it could serve as a good reminder to check rope&route length, reinforcing good habits?

I definitely have more questions than answers . . .

Mark Cushman · · Cumming, GA · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 980

I think the difference between the Flatirons/Red Ledge signage and the proposed dog tags at the start of a route are that they are DESCENT lengths, ones that you may not have climbed up to and may be unaware of the distance down. I don't think they can be compared to what is proposed because they serve a completely different purpose.

I think we can agree that lowering accidents can be avoided by either:

a) having the belayer tie in
b) tying a knot in the end
c) keeping track of the middle mark in the rope

With many new sport routes now requiring a 70m rope my vote is to NOT label the routes. We should do our part by educating new climbers about route lengths and safety techniques and not dumb down the sport with labels.

Tom Hanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 950

Caveat Emptor.
Knot the end of your rope when rappelling.
Knot the end of your rope when belaying.
I don't want to sound heartless, but rapping or lowering off the end of your cord is how nature weeds out the dumb ones.

Bapgar 1 · · Out of the Loop · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 90

Just another opinion.
I believe that some sort of signage would, in the long run, be more beneficial than harmful. I wouldn't mind seeing some routes at local sport crags with a tag indicating required rope length, route name and grade.
I think that sometimes those of us that have been climbing for a decade or more tend to forget some of the loosely related climbing skills we've acquired over the years... such as reading guidebooks, or more directly things such as route finding.
Personally I would like to see some of these things in place more for selfish reasons. If there were some of these "public services" in place that helped re-enforce good habits and helped them to be even a little more safe and aware it might help prevent some accidents. I've been lucky enough to make it 13yrs w/ out seeing a serious injury/fatality while climbing and would very much like to keep it that way.

I won't argue that any of these precautions will stop accidents from happening. But as to the argument of reducing climbing to the lowest common denominator... it really appears that sometimes a segment of the climbing community is trying keep the sport from growing, which is about as futile as denying that the human body ages. Climbing is becoming more popular, I would rather embrace this, make it more safe for people to transition out of the gyms and create a bigger and more influential user group to create even more kick ass climbing opportunities than be unrealistic and fight this process.

There's always going to be places to climb that require a skill set that the majority of the climbing community is unwilling to dedicate the time to develop. As for the local sport climbing it can hardly be considered adventure climbing, so why not make it as safe and fun as possible?
BA

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425

It's a tough one...personal responsibility is pretty key in climbing, but at the same time I don't really care to see anybody die simply because they made a mistake on a climbing route. Yeah, it's a dangerous sport and no I don't think we should dumb down everything to make it safe, but not everyone has a 70m or a guide book. My friend has personally stopped several parties from rapping off the back of the First Flatiron. Without a guidebook who would know that you have to traverse 15ft climber's left. All they see are rappel anchors.

I think I have pretty decent eithics, but remember...

IT'S ONLY ROCK CLIMBING!!! Let's be safe and try to support each other.

And Tom....try to remember that if Nature weeds out the dumb ones, I'm sure some of your friends and family would get caught in that net. I know mine would!! It's not our call to decide who is "dumber" than us or "weaker". I'd end up clearing HWY 36 of everyone!!

Tom Hanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 950

Climbing areas should be fenced off and policed to prevent unauthorized access.
One could gain access only by presenting a license that shows they have taken the requisite courses and paid their fees in advance.
Every level of climbing grade should have its own certification.
One should not be allowed to attempt a 5.10c or test for the 5.10c certificate until they have completed the 5.10b course of study.
All climbers should undergo a complete background check and drug screen on a quarterly basis to keep their certification current.
All climbing must be supervised.
Anyone under the age of twenty-one must be accompanied by a parental guardian.
All routes must be equipped with half inch by six inch stainless steel bolts every five feet and these bolts can only be installed by licensed master bolt consultants.
Climbers intending to do a particular route should have to register for that route at least six weeks prior, in order for the local climbing committee to verify their qualifications.

Or, we can just leave it alone and keep it as the last bastion of hope for a sport that allows us to exercise one of the few freedoms left to us in a highly regulated society.

Tom Hanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 950

Scott wrote: "And Tom....try to remember that if Nature weeds out the dumb ones, I'm sure some of your friends and family would get caught in that net. I know mine would!! It's not our call to decide who is "dumber" than us or "weaker".

Yeah, you got me there. Intelligence must have very little to do with longevity in the sport, as evidenced by my thirty-nine years of participation.

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425
Tom Hanson wrote:Scott wrote: "And Tom....try to remember that if Nature weeds out the dumb ones, I'm sure some of your friends and family would get caught in that net. I know mine would!! It's not our call to decide who is "dumber" than us or "weaker". Yeah, you got me there. Intelligence must have very little to do with longevity in the sport, as evidenced by my thirty-nine years of participation.
Yeah, I guess I lumped myself into the "smart ones" group...Not sure if I meant or have the right to do that!!
David Appelhans · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 410

Don't put up tags.

Sport climbing should not be the same as gym climbing. It is not guaranteed safe and if you make a mistake it can kill you. Take your brake hand off the rope in a gym and your partner falls 35 feet onto a 6 in pad, probably still living. That isn't the case outside because sport climbing isn't gym climbing! We aren't creating the danger and choosing to weed out the "week" or "dumb", they are making their own choices.

People have to learn how to climb unsupervised and with their minds not just their arms. What better place to learn personal responsibility than at an "entry level" crag? It seems we certainly aren't expecting people to learn the basics at the gym, pretty soon we won't expect it at sport crags either.

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425

This is really one of those discussions that doesn't have a clear cut answer.

Not everyone should be driving, but do they? Yes..and even though they shouldn't be driving, they won't have their right to drive taken away. I guess even if this crag was made "safe" what about the others?

That being said, even if the signs are NOT added, they probably will be in a couple years after a few climber accidents.

Brad Brandewie · · Estes Park · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 2,931

I would vote against adding tags to the base of routes.

my .02,
Brad

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Casey Bernal wrote:This post was originally a comment in ?? I think it is kinda obvious that no one here is recommending dog tags for routes on any other crag - just Catslab was mentioned. Since this crag is a well known beginner moderate crag, it would seem most appropriate at THIS CRAG.
What you do at one crag will eventually be done at another.
If climbers get the idea that 'A' is common practice, then it will either happen at other crags, or it won't.
If it does, then there you have it, it does.
If it doesn't, then the expectation that it has is BAD NEWS. Because someone will presume that the length is OK for lack of a tag and it will not be.
Most people here are probably picking their interpretation of the probability of the differing potential consequences dependent upon what they want the outcome to be for themselves.

I'm rather indifferent to it. The tags never bothered me, but it could be a problem if they set unrealistic expectaitons on other climbs or get removed, which some will if they are contentious.

Decide wisely.
kirra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 530
Brad Brandewie wrote:I would vote against adding tags to the base of routes.
+1

tony also has some good points. imo if you can't do a little research before a climb -stay in the gym
Forest Hill · · Denver, CO · Joined May 2003 · Points: 25
slim wrote:What did people do before guidebooks? To say that people shouldn't wander around without guidebooks is like saying people shouldn't have left their cozy caves.
Anyone who was climbing before there were guidebooks should have (and mostly did) known enough not to assume they could get down on a single rope.

I agree with Tony that having different conventions for different crags like this could confuse people.
John McNamee · · Littleton, CO · Joined Jul 2002 · Points: 1,690

Please no signs and no tags. Keep it simple. Buy a guide book, send some money to the access fund and use mp.com!

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

Many of you say don't put up tags.

I say don't put anchors too high for a single 60 meter rope to get you down. If that were done, no tags would ever be necessary. But alas, sometimes a natural ledge is just another 15 feet and there you are, too long for a single rope rappel.

In those cases, I say put a tag. Pretty specific situation.

Kirk Miller · · Catalina, AZ and Ilwaco, WA · Joined May 2003 · Points: 1,824

I think every bolt should have a dog tag with pertinent information such as: which way to face the gate when you clip, how many clips remaining, distance to the next bolt, distance of potential fall on the bit to the next bolt, possible cruxes ahead, excuses for existing next to a crack, discussion of the need for care when climbing, explanation for the condition of the climbers undies, etc... you know useful stuff; things you need to be aware of before you clip into a bolt.

Tom R · · Denver, CO · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 140

I could take or leave the tags. It doesn't bother me either way. I haven't bothered to read most of the ones at Little Eiger.
Instead of putting route information on the tags, why not put dirty jokes on the tags. You could put a second tag at the anchor with the punchline written on it. Then I would be more likely to read it.

Mike Morin · · Glen, NH · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 1,355
Stich wrote:Many of you say don't put up tags. I say don't put anchors too high for a single 60 meter rope to get you down. If that were done, no tags would ever be necessary. But alas, sometimes a natural ledge is just another 15 feet and there you are, too long for a single rope rappel. In those cases, I say put a tag. Pretty specific situation.
Where does this end though? Would we then go around retro-tagging any and all routes that are over 30 meters? Are we going to tag every rappel anchor that requires two ropes, no matter where it exists? What about sporty routes in say the S. Platte? I understand not wanting to see people get hurt out there, but might we be setting people up for failure if they come to believe that no tag means they needn't worry about rope length? Relying on others for your safety is bad news. In my opinion we should be discussing how to convince people to tie stopper knots.
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520
Mike Morin wrote: Where does this end though?
Oh, I forgot. Someone has to have died on the route due to it being unexpectedly too long for a single rope. This particular route qualifies.

Would that be OK then?
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
Post a Reply to "Sign - Sign - everywhere a Sign (route length &…"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.