Should I buy TC Pros super snug, snug, comfortable, etc?

I need some crack/trad shoes. Should I be buying TC Pros sized comfortably with no toe curling or should my toes curl a little anticipating stretch? I wear 10.5 street shoes.

They stretch. A LOT.

I wear size 46 boots and just bought a pair of size 44 TCs cause 43.5 were too tight for multipitch. I had the 43.5s for two resolves, going on three and they stretched just like Jason said.. A lot!

It depends on how you intend to use them. I made this post a little while back:

Like a lot of quality trad shoes, the TCs offer different performance advantages at a range of different sizings. They are a versatile shoe, so any single sizing suggestion or proclamation of "what the shoes are for" is likely to provide a limited view of the shoe's potential.

Anyway, how you size them will depend on your own sizing preferences, how the shoe fits your foot, what kind of climbing you use them for, whether you take them off while belaying, and how hard the routes are that you will be climbing in them. A lot to think about, which is why sizing by mail is so hard. The last point is a somewhat unfashionable point to make, but it is important. If you are climbing 5.8, the level of precision needed in your footwork is not that high, so you can get away with some very comfortable shoes. As things get harder, the precision and power of a tighter shoe make a big difference, and the performance vs. comfort calculation shifts a bit.

Anyway, here is a basic TC Pro guide:

For romping around on long easy trad multipitch, wearing them all day and descending without taking them off, or wearing them with socks on chilly alpine rock terrain, consider downsizing 0-1 Euro sizes from your street shoe.

For general purpose trad climbing (i.e. a mix of cragging and multiptich in the 5.9-5.11 range), most will want to downsize 1-2.5 sizes.

For hard single pitch granite, downsize 2-3 sizes.

I have a pair in 39.5 that I wear for hard cragging at Index (my running shoes are 42.5); I love them. They are comfortable for single pitch climbing after a day or two to break them in; they hurt if I wear them for multipath (I have a larger pair for that purpose).

So, it depends on use. If you are getting them as a general-purpose trad shoe, for moderate multipitch, with a mix of face, cracks, and slabs, size them with your toes barely bent when the shoes are new. They'll break in and stretch such that they are a snug flat fit.

I'm usually 43.5 or 44 size shoes, upon some advice I went with 42.5, which were initially tight, but after 2 months of use, are now the most comfortable shoes I have had to date. Same advisor told me to keep the bottom of the laces, like at the toes, really loose and just tighten the top until they stretch, which worked really well for comfort.

Rich zz wrote:I need some crack/trad shoes. Should I be buying TC Pros sized comfortably with no toe curling or should my toes curl a little anticipating stretch? I wear 10.5 street shoes.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a shoe where my toes were curled in the store. Even anticipating/hoping for stretch. A shoe that is too small to start will stretch more, a shoe that isn't as tight (toes flat) will stretch less.

John Wilder wrote:Shoes don't get longer, no matter what the brand. They will get wider and gain a bit of volume, and your feet will get used to the shoe, but if your toes are crammed in there, you're not going to be a happy camper if you're climbing finger cracks. I have three pairs of TC Pros- sizes 40.5, 41, and 41.5 Read JCM's post on what each is for. None of my TC Pros have stretched in length, they've only gotten less stiff and had to be tightened up a bit with the laces to accommodate the leather stretching.

My experience is the same... ymmv

John, are you sure about this? It makes sense from my experience, but seems to run counter to popular opinion.

For crack climbing or multipitch, you want flat toes. TC Pros are a hard shoe to size for, because generally when somebody buys them, they're looking for something that can do it all; climb cracks all day while edging like a beast. Unfortunately, the reality is that there's going to be a trade off, which is why many people buy 2.

John Wilder wrote:Shoes don't get longer, no matter what the brand...if your toes are crammed in there, you're not going to be a happy camper if you're climbing finger cracks.

The TC Pro CAN get slightly longer. Over time the rand stretches enough that it goes over the sole slightly, probably by no more than 1/4-1/2 euro size. As for whether your toes should be (slightly) curled for finger cracks, that depends.

If you are just doing 5.8, ignore all that: flat toes all the way.

John Wilder wrote:Shoes don't get longer, no matter what the brand. They will get wider and gain a bit of volume, and your feet will get used to the shoe, but if your toes are crammed in there, you're not going to be a happy camper if you're climbing finger cracks. I have three pairs of TC Pros- sizes 40.5, 41, and 41.5 Read JCM's post on what each is for. None of my TC Pros have stretched in length, they've only gotten less stiff and had to be tightened up a bit with the laces to accommodate the leather stretching.

My 40.5 TC's had an ever so slight knuckle on my big toe when I bought them. When I say slight I mean that jamming tight hands (#1 c4) did not cause pain.
After a month or so of use both big toes laid completely flat.
I would say that the stretch was only around 1/4 of a size.

If I got to a 41 new in the store my toes are decently snug in the end, but with a lot of pressure I can curl my toes back slightly without rolling the shoe significantly. In a new 40.5 I can only move the sole, can't roll toes backward. Not sure if that's more due to volume or length.

Tc pros don't stretch at all for me even if I size them super tight. I think it depends on how much you sweat. The way they fit in the store is the way they fit after a few resoles.

I think if they're really comfortable in the store (as my first pair was), they're not going to perform well down the road. That first pair actually causes me some really odd blisters now at the base of my pinkie toes with toe/foot jamming.

Anyway, with the next pair, just over the line of "gee, I hope I didn't get these too tight" has turned out to be...just a little too big. I really have to crank the laces to get the best out of them for edging (although they work well when I do that). They're just great for jamming though. I'll go another half size smaller with my next pair. But to answer your specific toe-curling question, "just slightly" is what I'll aim for next time.

The shoe seems extremely stiff off the shelf, so you might expect that you can get away with a little slop in the fit, but the shoes soften dramatically with use, and then you want a precise fit.

Go down a full size and your toes will be flat. You don't need curled toes for edging in these shoes.

If you're a 10.5 US, try them on in a 42 and 42.5. The 42.5 will be a fairly comfortable shoe that will work well on cracks and longer routes without sacrificing climbing performance too much, the 42 will edge like nobody's business with a bit of a sacrifice in comfort.

I'm a 10.5, wear a 44.5 in most Sportiva trail runners, and currently have the TC Pro in a 42. I originally had them in a 42.5, but decided to size down for better edging performance. Now that I've had those a while I'm planning on buying another pair in a 42.5 so that I've got a comfortable pair of shoes.

Of course, everyone's preferences for fitting shoes are different, so YMMV.

I'm at 1/2 size below my approach show size for la Sportiva.

They stretch a bit, being leather and yup.

grubbers wrote:If you're a 10.5 US, try them on in a 42 and 42.5. The 42.5 will be a fairly comfortable shoe that will work well on cracks and longer routes without sacrificing climbing performance too much, the 42 will edge like nobody's business with a bit of a sacrifice in comfort. I'm a 10.5, wear a 44.5 in most Sportiva trail runners, and currently have the TC Pro in a 42. I originally had them in a 42.5, but decided to size down for better edging performance. Now that I've had those a while I'm planning on buying another pair in a 42.5 so that I've got a comfortable pair of shoes. Of course, everyone's preferences for fitting shoes are different, so YMMV.

i know i tried a 44.5 before and my toes were a little cramped. i should go even smaller?

Personally, I size my TCs so they fit right a couple of hours into the day after my feet have swollen up a bit. For me that means 45 instead of 44.5

I also greatly prefer flat toes when foot jamming because my feet are old and beat up. If a route requires a lot of that Mythos are even better for me.

I would wear my Miuras if I felt I needed better performance on a given route...

I'm on my 7th pair of TCs... you may not know exactly what you want until you have spent many, many hours in them.

I got mine a half size larger than my Miura lace and VS, comfy all day after they've stretched.
But I will end up getting the half-size smaller as well because after sweating them up a bit, that half size bigger lets my foot roll a bit when going after tiny edges.

Tapas wrote:... you may not know exactly what you want until you have spent many, many hours in them.

That's what's up

Yeah, I did the same thing (sized 0.5 up from Katana Laces) and got similar results Luc, although on a cold day, they fit perfectly. Not sure if I'd need a performance pair AND the Katanas, as I feel like anything a tight pair of TCs could do a tight pair of Katanas could do better...

grubbers wrote:If you're a 10.5 US, try them on in a 42 and 42.5. The 42.5 will be a fairly comfortable shoe that will work well on cracks and longer routes without sacrificing climbing performance too much, the 42 will edge like nobody's business with a bit of a sacrifice in comfort. I'm a 10.5, wear a 44.5 in most Sportiva trail runners, and currently have the TC Pro in a 42. I originally had them in a 42.5, but decided to size down for better edging performance. Now that I've had those a while I'm planning on buying another pair in a 42.5 so that I've got a comfortable pair of shoes. Of course, everyone's preferences for fitting shoes are different, so YMMV.

Wow! I have the same size feet, use the same size approach shoes (in Sportiva) and found the 43 TCs to be way too tight for any more than a single pitch. I can't imagine stuffing them in anything smaller. I also use a 42.5 Katana (tight) and a 43 katana (a bit more comfy). I have a pretty pronounced Morton's toe, which may explain some of the difference.