Should Dogs be at the Crags?

This part of the forums are a little light right now, so I thought I'd drop a topic in that any old climbingboulder.com visitor will be familiar with...

By: Joe Keyser On: 3.19.2002
Comments: Don't get me wrong, I like dogs a lot. I just think that they don't make good climbers, and for the most part should stay out of harm's way... Another example was a few weeks ago, I was up at Pitkin Falls, and these folks showed up with a tiny little puppy...it was like 10 below, and the brittle ice was falling everywhere?!?! I guess this is just my 'pet peeve'...

By: Aaron Shupp Report to Moderator On: 3.21.2002
Comments: [You're] right about the dog problem, Joe. A few months ago when I was hiking up the trail along the [West Ridge], I came upon a lazy-looking dog tied to a tree with a very long rope. As soon as I was close enough, the vicious animal sprung to its feet and took a lunge for my throat. Luckily the tether stopped the dog in mid-air, and it fell to the ground snarling and gnashing its teeth. Its hair was raised and its ears were back. It was pulling desperately on its rope so that it could make another attempt at my jugular. My [partner] and I had to scramble a good fifty feet off the trail to avoid the striking distance of the enraged animal. After passing safely, I noticed a duo on the second pitch of a route nearby. I asked if it was their dog down here tied to the tree alongside the trail. The guy yells, "Sorry, he USUALLY doesn't do that!" I then began to wonder why someone would bring a dangerous animal to a high-traffic place where they pose a threat to anyone that passes. I hope climbers will be more responsible and leave their Cujos at home while they are climbing. I don't mind FRIENDLY dogs, but I'd rather die falling from the rock than being mauled and eaten alive.

Dog peed on rope while I was leading (on leash);
Dog bit my bro (on leash). Bro inadvertently made an aggressive move - didn't see the dog, dog reacted;
Seen dogs totally dehydrated at N Table in the summer, looking for a way to shade.

I have a dog - aggressive (not in the above situations). I don't bring my dog because I need to focus on climbing or my partner's safety & she's active.

Do dogs belong at crags - it depends on the situation, the dog, & the owner. I can only recommend they stay at home. Of course I can also recommend certain owners need stay at home too.

It all comes down to the owner(s). I've seen some very mean and unruly dogs at the crags, and I've seen some great ones. One of the best was an old dog (not sure of the breed) that actually recognized that when someone yelled "Rope!" it was best to get up and move so as not to be whipped by a falling rope.

I'm not a 'dog person' at all though, so I'd prefer if some overly friendly puppy didn't try to climb all over me while I'm sitting around. The thing that bothers me the most is when the owner says "Oh, be easy on him-- he's just a puppy!", or some similar excuse that puts all the responsibility on the dog.

Dogs should not be taken to the crags.

1. Dogs bite people and other dogs. I myself have been bitten by a dog and have seen people get bitten at climbing areas. Do not dismiss the possibility that your dog may be aggressive.

2. Dogs bark. Some unattended dogs can bark for hours and this is totally obnoxious.

3. Your dog can be severely injured or killed at a crag. Remember that you are in the outdoors and your dog can get hit by rockfall and ice and the like.

4. Dogs have to relieve themselves. Dogs crap on rocks, giving meaning to the climbing technique 'smearing.' Dogs can and do piss on anything they see fit.

Do not turn a climbing area into a dog park with a cliff as a back drop. Dogs are good pets when kept at home.

I dearly love my dog, but there is no way in hell I would take her to a climbing area with me. I love to take her climbing and skiing with me when she is in arm's length at any moment, but her experience lurking at the base of a route is little different than lurking at home - aside from her ability to make others uncomfortable at the base. Leave the dogs home! There is no good reason to bring one outside of pure personal selfishness, and a million reasons why it is a bad idea.

Being from Jackson Hole our issue is dogs while backcountry skiing. Nothing is better than getting dog shit on your climbing skins. Sucks.

And we have a very popular boot pack up a local mountain where a whole winter of dogs take a shit on the trail. Needless to say as the snowpack melts out in March and April it gets NASTY. Literally thousands of dog shits get exposed.

Oh yeah, and dogs breaking off cornices and starting avys. It happens once a year here.

Anyways, back to climbing.

valid points regarding skiing. since i am in the wasangles backcountry, i always bag my dog's shit up and bring it down with me. my 150-pound wolfhound throws down coilers bigger than mine, so i wouldn't dream of leaving it up there (though sometimes i think i should bring my wall poop tube with me to handle her waste). i also only bring her on low-angle mellow tours where cornice drops are very unlikely.

seems like i always have to yell at one or two folks a year that i see putting a beacon on fido too. WTF?

I'm not sure if most people should be at the crags.

AH Greg, it seems dogs were caught in the smoking act while playing a game of poker sometime around 1910:

santacruzpl.org/readyref/fi…

You can clearly see the looks of the guilty bluffer.

Some of the arguments against dogs sound like the pot calling the kettle black.
I have never been bitten by a dog (even with all the hours spent at the dog park and crag where heaven forbid I bring an animal to the outdoors) but I have been bitten by mosquitoes, ticks, bees, almost a rattlesnake, and a couple of . Speaking of s--t on the trail and at the crag what about elk, bats, raptors, coyotes, swallows, raccoons, etc... And that terrible noise from robins, elk, and crickets. Lord knows people never make and impact on nature. Wait, wait, I've got it! Let's completely enclose the entire crag and charge a cover, that will keep out all those horrible nuisances and allow only humans in. That way we only have to deal with cussing, smoking, cigarette butts, devegetation for that sweet boulder move, pissing in the bushes, Power Bar wrappers, water bottles, webbing left behind, 10-ft-wide trails, 15 cars in 3 spaces, yelling beta, scrubbing the lichen off a hold, beer bottles, drilling bolts, gear tags, chalk...

Good dogs and good owners, great.
Bad dogs and bad people (some wouldn't see a difference in the two), stay home.

I was at Hells Canyon this weekend and if you don't like dogs never go to Hell! The dogs matched the climbers and 9 to 9, I don't know 5 climbers that don't have at least one dog and they all come to the crag. If you have a bad dog, just leave it at home chained right next to its dry water bowl where it lives 99% of the time anyway.

Now be a good doggy and don't eat my lunch.

I take my dog a lot of the time. I'll usually leave him at home while ice climbing because he'll freeze his tail off and doesn't really know what crampons are (and hopefully he'll never find out). I'll also leave him at home when I know it's going to be crowded. Other than that he goes.

The only problems with taking him is I'll look down and see him napping in the shade and get jealous, and the girls pay more attention to him than me, and I get really jealous.

I have most of the same complaints about people with small children running around as I do with dogs running around. There should always be one adult who is not belaying or climbing who can keep the child or the dog from being dangerous (not to mention a nuisance) to everyone else.

Ferguson Canyon is about the only good rock climbing canyon in the Northern Wasatch where you can take your dog. So every time I climb there, I bring my dog. Most places I go I bring my dog, I can't just leave him home for the weekend alone. Most of the time I am climbing in places where there isn't anybody else but my partner, so it doesn't really matter. I'd rather deal with dogs than most of the climbers out there anyway.

Andrew Gram wrote: There is no good reason to bring one outside of pure personal selfishness, and a million reasons why it is a bad idea.

Andrew, read your words again carefully then tell me again how you dearly love your dog. Does your dog stay inside 24/7? NO good reason to bring a dog outside? Are you kidding me? Your home must be very tidy and pleasant.

For everyone...
Dogs DO have a million reasons to be outside. They are dogs for gods sake! Dogs DO belong at the crags! Common sense, which is sadly lacking in most humans, if properly employed, should keep unsuitable pets away. My dog and most of my friends' dogs are great crag dogs. They have a great time and don't harm anyone. In fact for many dogs, like many humans, it is way better than being stuck at home. Sure they probably poop somewhere but they don't leave gobs of climbing tape, cigarette butts and Luna Bar wrappers at the base. As for poop, don't you? Where do you drop your load in the great outdoors? Do you pinch it off til you can get to the toilet at the ranger's station or do you squat into a ziplock? With all due respect, millions of years of bears and bunnies can't be wrong, poop is biodegradable! Candy wrappers and tape however aren't. Certainly we humans should exercise caution and limit or mitigate the impact on our communal areas. Just use common sense! Yeah I know dogs dig up sticks and chase furry critters. But if you have ever seen an elk in rut or a bear scratch his back you would realize a dog's presence in the woods isn't half the impact of his owner's. Millions of years of migrating (eating, pooping, walking, running, rutting) herds left little but subtle pathways as damage to the earth. Dogs didn't build superhighways and parking lots. Dogs didn't poison the air and water. Dogs didn't spray paint their name in Krylon on the rocks. Perhaps dogs should be allowed but we humans be required to pass an entrance exam.
Yes of course there are "bad" dogs out there. Try politely telling your buddy to leave that dog out. Oh course there are areas where they shouldn't go at all anyway. Either because, like RMNP they are essentially banned, or like the Black Canyon it would be absurd to take them. The simple truth is that there are a whole lot more "bad" people out there that shouldn't be allowed at the crags.
I have decades of positive experience with animals in the back country. Dogs per se are not the problem; it is their humans that need a talking to. In all those years the worst behavior I have seen was human. Dogs don't get climbing areas closed down or access restricted. The sweet old lady who owned the ranch at the base of the Indian Creek crags didn't have a problem with dogs so long as they didn't mess with her cattle. In those days you could camp right there in the trees by the creek right across the road under the crags, dogs and all. It was a fantastic camp area! It wasn't until THE HUMANS started messing with and complaining about her cattle that she shut the campsite down.
I have a wife, three kids, a foreign-exchange student and a dog. We all deserve to get outdoors. So long as we can get along and abide by the accepted standards of the area we have a right to as well. If we can't then common sense would indicate a change of plans was in order.

Dave Holliday wrote: I think Andrew may have meant to write "there is no good reason to bring a dog to the crag". Reread his previous message with that mind and see if it makes more sense.

there is no reason NOT to bring a dog to the crag! I say we should co-exist with animals not OWN them.

Andrew Gram wrote:There is no good reason to bring one outside of pure personal selfishness.

Maybe your dog should leave you home when she goes out running with her friends. Selfishness is "owning" a dog that you feel you need you control. Any owner of a "sketchy" or "poor etiquite" dog is probably more "sketchy" than their dog, and neither should be at the crag. The few times my dog took me to the crag we had a great time with other climbers and dogs.

I do understand breeds backgrounds, but does you dog never just chill? like at home, on a drive, outside not "running or pulling"?? Every waking moment doesn't need to be extreme activity.(hence her chill time at home while you're climbing.) Just let her of the leash at the crag for a few hours. If she's full of energy she'll run around, but she might just saunter around and explore, or hell, nap a while. (i understand some crags have treacherousities (haha) like roads, private property, poision oak, which are just unacceptable.) Dave- this was not a personal attack. you know your dog best...i respect that, but hell, i love to see um at the crag! -PAUL

(BTW-Finally saw some sun here on the SONORAPASSHIGHWAY!!!!)

To Helldorado- don't generalize, in response...
1) My dog has never bitten person
2) My dog doesn't bark
3) It's true, my dog could be killed, but so could I
4) My dog does not relieve herself at the crag. She actually doesn't like to do it on rock and waits until she reaches dirt or grass.

It definitely depends on the dog and owner, and one always hopes those dog owners whose dogs should stay at home keep them at home.

And I think there are good reasons to bring your dog to the crag. Our dog loves to go climbing with us and people always seem to enjoy her at the crag as well. She stuffs tons of pine cones in her mouth and this seems to really entertain people. I'm just glad I have a dog who's well-behaved enough to go to the crag with me, now if only I could teach her to belay...

Well, after a good 7-year run with my German Shepherd, she laid down on her kennel straw and passed away peacefully. She became sick the last week, we thought the heat was getting to her with her winter coat; and when she started eating regularly, I thought she'd adjusted. But, she was really in a bad way, probably cancer, we found a tumor.

It sucks, she was a great pup & man's best friend that would take it easy while bouldering & loved to ride in the jeep, I'll miss her.

Has anyone else sang the blues over their pup?

I agree with those of you that say it all depends on the dog and the owner. Any well trained dog should be allowed at the crag. But at the same time how do you teach a dog to behave well at the rock if you have never taken them there to train them. There has to be a first time. And also i feel sorry for those dogs whose life consist of being left at home inside or fenced in in the backyard only hoping for that occasional walk around the block. The same issue is being brought up all around the outdoor world. People dont want you taking your dog camping or even hiking. So i guess we should just all leave our dogs at home to live their miserable lives running in circles around the back yard barking at birds.

In addition i encounter more humans on a daily basis at the rock that bite, bark and relieve themselves all over the crag than i do dogs.

Dogs are great, especially between a couple of pieces of rye bread and a little Inglehoffer mustard. Oh and don't forget the dog piss beer, Budweiser, Coors, etc...(Not that I drink that crap)

Oh at the crags...my bad. Yeah they pretty much suck ass, noisy, menacing, they get in the way, they lack respect, they shit/piss everywhere. Ohhhh the dogs, yeah they suck too. I wonder if anyone has brought a cat to the crags, or a ferret maybe. Kids are the same, if people need to bring their dogs and kids to the crag, I would like to see a muzzle law put into affect.