Scammed by a climber while buying gear

What happened

I recently posted a wtb nuts in the for/sale forum and got approached jcastleberry about a set of DMM peanutes. We agreed on price of 25$ for the nuts, shipped.
A few days later, I received an empty ripped up letter within a transparent usps letter explaining that the package had no content. Mr jcastleberry used a flat rate envelope without padding with a 89 cents postage.

empty usps envelope

After reaching out to him, and checking back with USPS (at his request), silence followed.
After a few days, I made it clear that I was expecting my money back, to which he answered "Just give me about 5 weeks. You'll forget about it by then."

A bit infuriated by the answer, I pointed out that "25$ for your online reputation is a bit cheap, but your call.", to which he smartly answered "I drift like a ghost through the internet. Your traps will never catch me."

The current situation

Since I used "friends and family" on paypal, I cannot use their insurance.My bank cancelled the payment and re-imbursed me (invistigation is still on-going).

About jcastleberry

2 ways to look at it :
1) jcastleberry is a scammer and never sent any nuts, but collected 25$
2) jcastleberry is a reckless climber, who does not care for his gear and has no sense of ethics.

Either way, I would strongly discourage doing any sort of business with him, or even worse, go climbing with him (where it's not 25$ at stake, but your life).

Reflections on buying on MP

- you should really think 3 times before using friends and family - doing so voids your legal protection from paypal, in my case I saved less than a dollar but had to spend quite some time on the phone :S
- you should really discuss the shipping methods with the seller - I was taking it for granted that the nuts would arrive in a USPS package for 6$ stamping or so, never realizing that someone would even consider a flat envelope to send nuts.
- a quick google search on a seller email can go a long way (jcastleberry left a set of nuts and offset cams at the bottom of a crag... talk about caring for your gear)

Nassim wrote:What happened I recently posted a wtb nuts in the for/sale forum and got approached jcastleberry about a set of DMM peanutes. We agreed on price of 25$ for the nuts, shipped. A few days later, I received an empty ripped up letter within a transparent usps letter explaining that the package had no content. Mr jcastleberry used a flat rate envelope without padding with a 89 cents postage. After reaching out to him, and checking back with USPS (at his request), silence followed. After a few days, I made it clear that I was expecting my money back, to which he answered "Just give me about 5 weeks. You'll forget about it by then." A bit infuriated by the answer, I pointed out that "25$ for your online reputation is a bit cheap, but your call.", to which he smartly answered "I drift like a ghost through the internet. Your traps will never catch me." The current situation Since I used "friends and family" on paypal, I cannot use their insurance.My bank cancelled the payment and re-imbursed me (invistigation is still on-going). About jcastleberry 2 ways to look at it : 1) jcastleberry is a scammer and never sent any nuts, but collected 25$ 2) jcastleberry is a reckless climber, who does not care for his gear and has no sense of ethics. Either way, I would strongly discourage doing any sort of business with him, or even worse, go climbing with him (where it's not 25$ at stake, but your life). Reflections on buying on MP - you should really think 3 times before using friends and family - doing so voids your legal protection from paypal, in my case I saved less than a dollar but had to spend quite some time on the phone :S - you should really discuss the shipping methods with the seller - I was taking it for granted that the nuts would arrive in a USPS package for 6$ stamping or so, never realizing that someone would even consider a flat envelope to send nuts. - a quick google search on a seller email can go a long way (jcastleberry left a set of nuts and offset cams at the bottom of a crag... talk about caring for your gear)

Sorry to hear about this. As far as the Paypal gift thing goes, I wouldent put much faith into Paypal. Paypal isint that great of a company and you may or may not get your money back through them. Instead, rely on your bank by paying with a credit card. You can dispute any charge made on a credit card at any bank in accordance with the federal Fair Credit and Billing act. I've disputed a few charges over the years when stuff like this happens to me and it's always been an extremely easy process. Last, mostly for other users reading, consider how many posts the member has made, what he's said in the posts, and how long he's been on the website before buying. Some websites require a minimum 100 quality posts and 60 days membership before selling. I think that's a good idea.

I would suggest you report this directly to Nick and add the member's user name in the title of the thread.

The post office note I see makes it sound like they screwed up and lost the contents. Am i reading that right?

When i sent shoes there was basic insurance included up to $50 bucks. Is that different with the envelope?

Mitch Kelly wrote:The post office note I see makes it sound like they screwed up and lost the contents. Am i reading that right? When i sent shoes there was basic insurance included up to $50 bucks. Is that different with the envelope?

Yup, USPS screwed up. Seller used first class parcel, it doesn't have tracking or insurance. It's like mailing a letter.

I want to chime in since I bought a set of offset cams from Justin (jcastleberry) in December. He shipped with a tracking number the same day I sent the payment. I used regular paypal (if I am requested to use paypal gift, I just foot the bill).
No issues.

SinRopa wrote:USPS, by their own admission, damaged the package during handling. This is not the seller's fault.

The seller sent it via a shipping method that is meant for letters and flat envelopes. The rollers these go through for processing would eject anything hard and non-uniform.

There is no reason at all to use Paypal Friends and Family when you are buying from an effectively anonymous online seller... Why would anyone think this is a good idea? It would have cost you a whopping $0.75 to do this the legit way. If 3% of the cost of what you are buying is too much, you should seriously reconsider if you should be spending money on climbing gear.

I've bought things on Mountain Project several times and never had a problem, The only time I got sketched out was when a guy was trying to sell me a pair of crampons for a ridiculously good price, with the caveat that he only accepted F&F payment so it would go into his bank account faster... I declined, and a few days later, there was a massive thread full of people who got scammed by him.

TL;DR: DO NOT USE PAYPAL FRIENDS AND FAMILY unless a person is actually your friend and/or family. D'oh!

Nassim wrote: Mr jcastleberry used a flat rate envelope without padding with a 89 cents postage.

Do you mean the cardboard kind of the paper kind? Doesn't priority mail have $50 of insurance? Did you contact the post office?

@Matt C - I did go to the post office, they said they received an empty envelope. I don't think there was any insurance (or any tracking number) at 89c (the postage he paid), which is my whole point about recklessness - if you care a minimum for your gear or want your transaction to go smoothly, you pay for proper shipping.

Nassim wrote:my whole point about recklessness - if you care a minimum for your gear or want your transaction to go smoothly, you pay for proper shipping.

What about YOU? Is there nothing reckless about blindly trusting a completely anonymous online stranger with your cash? If you want to protect yourself, you pay for proper protection. Or, as above, you use your credit card.

SinRopa wrote: OP said it was sent in a "flat rate envelope." I've sent plenty of hard and non-uniform things in flat rate envelopes and never had problems. I've even asked if "x will be ok to ship in this envelope" and the USPS folks have always gone with "if it fits, it's ok."

Sure, I was going off the photo though which isn't a flat rate envelope, and assumed OP didn't know the difference.

EDIT: also the flat rate envelope is $5.75, not $0.89, since it is treated like a package and not a letter (which is why you can put whatever you want in it).

Based on what you written and the notice form the post office, I would guess that the nuts fell out the package when it was damaged. The post office likely said that the envelope was empty because there was nothing inside after a hole was ripped in it. The fact that it was damaged at all suggests that there was a weirdly shaped object in it when shipped, such as stoppers.

Although I could be wrong, I would guess this is just a shitty situation not a scam.

That's not a USPS Flat Rate envelope. Flat Rate envelopes and boxes are white.

store.usps.com/store/browse…

And, if it was Flat Rate, it would not have cost $0.89. Mailing a Flat Rate envelope starts at $5.75 and (from what I recall) automatically comes with a tracking number and $50 insurance.

usps.com/ship/priority-mail…

This does not look to be USPS Flat Rate.

The fact that the nuts did not arrive is a problem. Good luck dealing with USPS. You're not going to get them to pay and they are likely to tell you that you should have insured the items. I have sold lots of items on MP and I always use tracking numbers and insurance to protect my ass. Since that was not done, the best thing would have been if the buyer and seller split the loss. Lesson learned for both parties: buyer - either buy from a retailer or demand (and pay for) insured shipping. Seller - use the appropriate method of shipping or be prepared to deal with an angry buyer if the item gets lost/damaged.

Sounds like both parties share some blame here.

Crispy. wrote: The fact that the nuts did not arrive is a problem. Good luck dealing with USPS. You're not going to get them to pay and they are likely to tell you that you should have insured the items. I have sold lots of items on MP and I always use tracking numbers and insurance to protect my ass. Since that was not done, the best thing would have been if the buyer and seller split the loss. Lesson learned for both parties: buyer - either buy from a retailer or demand (and pay for) insured shipping. Seller - use the appropriate method of shipping or be prepared to deal with an angry buyer if the item gets lost/damaged. Sounds like both parties share some blame here.

+1

Crispy. wrote:That's not a USPS Flat Rate envelope. Flat Rate envelopes and boxes are white. store.usps.com/store/browse… And, if it was Flat Rate, it would not have cost $0.89. Mailing a Flat Rate envelope starts at $5.75 and (from what I recall) automatically comes with a tracking number and $50 insurance. usps.com/ship/priority-mail… This does not look to be USPS Flat Rate. The fact that the nuts did not arrive is a problem. Good luck dealing with USPS. You're not going to get them to pay and they are likely to tell you that you should have insured the items. I have sold lots of items on MP and I always use tracking numbers and insurance to protect my ass. Since that was not done, the best thing would have been if the buyer and seller split the loss. Lesson learned for both parties: buyer - either buy from a retailer or demand (and pay for) insured shipping. Seller - use the appropriate method of shipping or be prepared to deal with an angry buyer if the item gets lost/damaged. Sounds like both parties share some blame here.

Good summary, Crispy. No scam here, just an over-trusting buyer and idiot seller.

Expecting to ship a set of stoppers for 89 cents..

Might just be gross incompetence, but painfully close to dishonesty, I would say.

SinRopa wrote: Yeah, it didn't look like a normal flat rate envelope to me either, but I was going off of his words. Either way, USPS claimed responsibility, which to me lets the seller off the hook.

I think that it shows that the seller likely sent the nuts. I don't think it takes him off the hook because the nuts were not received. Had he used a better method, like flat rate envelope, the nuts would have been delivered.

^^^
I think it likely shows that the seller did NOT ship the nuts. Apart from the unlikely scenario that anything was in the envelope to begin with, if he did ship them, how do you explain the responses?

Fat Dad wrote:^^^ I think it likely shows that the seller did NOT ship the nuts. Apart from the unlikely scenario that anything was in the envelope to begin with, if he did ship them, how do you explain the responses?

Think about the possibilities:

1. Seller mailed the nuts in an inappropriate envelope and they got lost, just as stated. Sounds plausible to me.

2. Seller mailed an empty envelope hoping to scam the buyer. What was his plan if the envelope arrived undamaged? Hope that the buyer didn't notice? Did he expect that the envelope would be damaged? What are the odds that he would be that lucky to have an empty envelope damaged?

3. Seller mailed a damaged, but empty envelope, hoping to scam the buyer. Do you think that the USPS would accept a damaged envelope, only to believe later that they damaged it and lost its contents? I don't.

I don't think this was a scam, I don't think it's right to say it was a scam, and I don't believe the buyer is telling us the full story. I also don't think (from the little that we actually know) that the seller handled the situation correctly.

Crispy. wrote: 2. Seller mailed an empty envelope hoping to scam the buyer. What was his plan if the envelope arrived undamaged? Hope that the buyer didn't notice? Did he expect that the envelope would be damaged? What are the odds that he would be that lucky to have an empty envelope damaged?

I had thought about that, and I think that's the most plausible reason for why they might have been shipped. But the seller could have put something else in kind of bulky (a rock, whatever). It's totally possible he did send the nuts, but then I have a hard time explaining his replies to the buyer (unless the buyer is totally confabulating that). I just find the responses inconsistent with someone who would have mailed them in the first place.