Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Rock climbing ethics from an origional Stone Master-Martin Veillon
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 1 of 4.  1  2  3  4   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By Martin Veillon
From El Cajon, Calif.
May 3, 2012
To all parties concerned I have the following to say and then I'm expecting that the people responsible for that noted will not just stop but remove the added bolts to my 1st ascents.
I'd like to also know how to attach my topos of Descanso Crag, Lawson Pk. and Stonewall Pk. so that everyone can see what's been established by both others and myself but I do not know how to do this yet.
I've received 2 e-mails and one phone call thus far about my concerns and find thus far that my concerns are indeed justified.
What has been going on since the 1st and 2nd edition of D. Kenney and C. Hubbard's guidebook to San Diego County is several people have come out to the 3 areas mentioned, in particular Descanso, and have added numerous bolts to my 1st ascents.
I have always noted that if you feel my bolts to be unsafe or questionable, then remove them and replace them with newer and better ones but do not add any extra ones as I have gone to great lengths to provide my climbs with well thought out protection.
What our main intention was and still is, is to have a varaity of climbs to not only keep the ethics I've grown up with, but to also teach of the several climbing potentials that one may one day encounter-hangerless bolts, runnouts, the complete aray of clean protection possibilities rather than bolts.
For example, recently added is at least 8 new bolts to my "Into the Eye of the Son" that starts at the origional most obivious way to start the climb by diagonaling from rigth to left accross a seam and crack which protects very well with a # 4 Rock and a .5 cam before ending into face climbing where I put in the 1st bolt and have been told that the person who put these bolts in is a 5.14 climber but for the life of me don't understand why they would need bolts epoxied in next to this seam/crack that's only approx. 5.6 - 5.7 climbing.
I've made one attempt last week to remove the 1st epoxied bolt but to no avail. The person who put these in along with all others added to my climbs needs to go back and remove them-but if not, no worries-I will!!!
Now per phone conversation with Ben May yesterday we discussed that I don't own the rock and neither does anyone else. But what we agreed on was that bolts next to areas that accept "clean" protection should never have bolts placed. And that the 1st ascent is to be respected and not violated without discussion with the 1st ascent party should someone disagree with the amount of protection provided.
As also discussed, this crag is completely topropeable for those who feel they are not into risky climbs.
I'm now 57 and obiviously lived thru the risks I've taken and don't expect others to do what they're not comfortable with.
But as many of you probably have read the books and stories of the elders who made this great sport into what it is and meant to be, it's about being one with the mountains and rock and therefore discovering what's deep inside of you and bringing forth to your very being that which sometimes only a little risk can bring out.
Look at what's been acomplished by the greats like Layton Kor, John Bachar, Peter Croft, Ron Kauk, Jim Bridwell, John Long, Reinhold Messner, Chris Bonnington, Tony Yaniro, Rick Piggot, John Harlin, Jerry Gallwas, Royal Robbins, and so many countless other Stone Masters.
The mountains brought out the best in them and helped make them the great people that they are.
So for the life of me I don't understand why people think that San Diego crags are exempt from the ethics of not retrobolting other people's 1st ascents.
I've never added nor removed other peoples bolts on their climbs as though we don't own the rock, we do own our 1st ascents as they are our works of art and deserve respect even if we don't find them to be beautifull.
Should we touch up the Mona Lisa to suit our eye, or the statue of David?
You have to make love to the rock so to speak and not rape it. Hell I've even seen a guy rappeling down and placeing pro to put in an aid climb-how do you learn aid climbing like that?
I've even put in one bolt on rappel several years ago to see if the new style felt right and after I did so and climbed the route I knew I would never do so again.
Many of the climbs I put in I did with less and/or no bolts and then came back later and added others to make them safer for others but I did leave a few with runnouts as like the "Bachar-Yerin" in Yosemite-that's what makes the climb so special for those who can.
Do you think Ron Kauk would allow bolts added to "Tales of Power" and "Seperate Reality"? And one day when he's dead and gone I expect that if any fool puts in bolts on those 2 most excellent climbs that they will get removed.
So yes my 1st ascents, my works of art, the trails I've blazed to get to the rock are special to me and many other Stone Masters.
I free soloed "Into the Eye of the Son" once, roped soloed "The Vampire" and "North-East Face Route" on Half Dome. I've free soloed approx. 1/4 of all of the 137 climbs I've put up at Descanso and roped soloed over 1/2 of them just for both practice and for the love of it when I was the climbing animal I once was.
Oct. 1, 2010 I had to have a double by-pass surgery on my heart and am fully recovered as far as I'll ever be, but I'll never be that lizard I once was but still do one finger pullups, one arm pushups, and hike 5 miles most every morning at 5am before going to work.
I'm retriming my trail system at Descanso and will be back on the rock by winter this year. And I will be removing all bolts added to my climbs at Descanso, Stonewall Pk. and Lawson Pk. again and again until I'm dead and gone and then my son and 4 grandsons will not allow my works of art to be degraded.
In closing, I have the utmost respect for everyone I meet and I do meet a lot of people as I am the Calif. Division of the State's Architect Inspector of Record Class 1 here at Helix H.S. in La Mesa, Ca. and my job is to inspect each and every aspect of construction of the new Performing Arts Complex currently in progress for Code compliance = I have the highest of ethics-is my job, it's what I do, it's who I am and my last name is Cajun which translates into "Those who keep watch."
Therefore since I give everyone respect even though we don't always see eye to eye on everything, I expect likewise please.
And always to remember is the 11th commandment that Jesus Christ gave us-"Love your neighbor as you love yourself." If we all just do that then there can be world peace at last-what a beautifull concept!!!

FLAG
By csproul
From Davis, CA
May 3, 2012
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the backgrou...
Paragraphs are your friend.

FLAG
By BigMoveMike
From prescott
May 3, 2012
Pente 5.11 Onsight
csproul, way to completely miss valuable content and instead opt for being a dick! well played good sir, the mountain project community thanks you for your contribution.

FLAG
By germsauce
May 3, 2012
Hippos kill people
Amen Mr. Veillon, this is well thought out, succinct and gets to the point without coming across as crusty, bitter or mean spirited. I hope the routes are returned to a safe, and natural-as-possible state.

FLAG
By csproul
From Davis, CA
May 3, 2012
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the backgrou...
Mike J. wrote:
csproul, way to completely miss valuable content and instead opt for being a dick! well played good sir, the mountain project community thanks you for your contribution.

I did read it, and while the content was good, it was a bit hard to get through. It would have been a lot easier to read if it had some breaks. A good message is meaningless if nobody wants to take the time to read it and I'm willing to bet a lot of people didn't make it through that whole thing.

FLAG
By James Crump
May 3, 2012
It is truly hardship see the vast hoard who seek only ease and spoon fed adventure. With my routes, trad,ground-up,etc, I have sought some balance, given a few lines to the evil of retro, but for those of weak fiber and sheltered necessity, feeling they can't enjoy climbing unless it is a sheltered as their mama's tit, it is never enough.

They forget that you gave them line x, or line y, now they want z too. I say enough and these whimpy little retro bolting panty waste can go to the gym. Leave the bold trad routes alone, go find your own toys and bolt them the way You want, but leave the bold routes you wine about alone!

Your arguments to retro are as feeble and weak as your hearts and courage. I vomit on sport climbers who claim to climb 5.12+, but whine and blithering on a mer 5.8 move without their security blanky of a bolt above their heads

Take away what builds strength and mental character and we will be beset by generations of feeble minds... And republicans...

FLAG
By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
May 3, 2012
Toofast
Thanks Martin! +1000

FLAG
By jarthur
From Westminster, CO
May 3, 2012
My dogs got ups yo!
csproul wrote:
I did read it, and while the content was good, it was a bit hard to get through. It would have been a lot easier to read if it had some breaks. A good message is meaningless if nobody wants to take the time to read it and I'm willing to bet a lot of people didn't make it through that whole thing.


I'm going to have to agree with csproul on this. I started to read it, but after the first couple of sentences (which I got the general point of the post) just stopped for the exact reason that csproul pointed out. I don't think csproul was being a dick, but if I had to listen to someone give a public speech that was filled with "and's" and "umm's" the whole time then the point of the speach has been lost on me.

General Notes:
1) Adding bolts to established routes is incredibly lame and the FA's should have the right to remove the additional bolts.
2) I wish tradsters would stop using BS examples about 12+ climbers pissing themselves on 5.8 trad moves. It doesn't exist. It's a feeble attempt for over the hill climbers to feel better about themselves and their waning abilities.

FLAG
 
By Will S
From Joshua Tree
May 3, 2012
Martin Veillon wrote:
Do you think Ron Kauk would allow bolts added to "Tales of Power" and "Seperate Reality"? And one day when he's dead and gone I expect that if any fool puts in bolts on those 2 most excellent climbs that they will get removed.


Between the grammar/formatting, the self proclaimed status as an "original Stonemaster" when basically nobody has every heard of you, the cross posting into multiple forum categories and multiple websites, the silly example above where both are splitter cracks that can be sewn up from bottom to top with modern gear, and the sign off of borderline proseltyzing, I just can't take you seriously. Csproul was right on the money, as well as jarthur.

Martin Veillon wrote:
I am the Calif. Division of the State's Architect Inspector of Record Class 1


Well, that doesn't reflect well on the CA DSAI then, when you can't manage basic formatting in this, or any of the other multitudinous forums where you've posted this same stuff. Sorry, but if you want to be read and taken as anything other than a ranting crank, basic formatting and clarity goes a long way.

And If you're that exercised about it, go chop the bolts. Simple solution to a simple problem.

FLAG
By James Crump
May 3, 2012
jarthur wrote:
2) I wish tradsters would stop using BS examples about 12+ climbers pissing themselves on 5.8 trad moves. It doesn't exist. It's a feeble attempt for over the hill climbers to feel better about themselves and their waning abilities.


Unfortunately I have seen too many examples first hand. It may not apply to you, but it is an event that sadly has happened. I won't names, but I could.

As to my waning abilities, yeah, I am a retired has been and do not pretend to be anything else these days. I proved myself through almost 40 years of climbing. You may bite may ass at your leisure.

FLAG
By Brian in SLC
May 3, 2012
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
James Crump wrote:
You may bite may ass at your leisure.


Yeah, well that's Bold Talk for a One-Eyed Fat Man

Cheers, James!

FLAG
By Martin Veillon
From El Cajon, Calif.
May 3, 2012
To those who are complaining then just read the last sentence and follow guideline # 1-don't be a jerk-it does not reflect well of yourself.
As for not being an origional Stone Master, what proof do you need?
And what proof do you have to provide backup to this statement?
Just another example of what's wrong in this world today-how sad, how very sad!!!

FLAG
By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
May 3, 2012
Bocan
hmmm...i'm sure it's a great read, but paragraphs..paragraphs.

FLAG
By Brian in SLC
May 3, 2012
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
Martin Veillon wrote:
As for not being an origional Stone Master, what proof do you need?


"Valhalla immediately became the prerequisite for a Stonemaster, and Mike kept a journal that logged the first 20 or so ascents."

"By 1974 there were easily 25 Stonemasters (an ascent of Valhalla was no longer a criteria), and by 1976, most everyone in Camp 4 was a charter member of the most unofficial club on the planet."

Original Stonemasters is a pretty short list of folks...

FLAG
By Martin Veillon
From El Cajon, Calif.
May 3, 2012
I've read these latest replys while in between concrete pours here at work and it is clear that I've hit a nerve as intended, as intended.
None of this is about my writing style or lack of such but some seem to be focused on this-whatever!
What's most important is the last sentence of my letter.
And I'm tired of removing the added bolts as it takes time out of my day from people's actions that need to stop out of respect for the 1st ascent.
The Stone Master catagory comes from qualifiyng ascents of which I've done many. And most importantly, the Stone Master guidelines are what I'm stressing.
So try to stay on track and do forgive my long windedness and not perfect letter writting, but get back to the real focus of it all and reply only to it rather than turning this into some sort of pissing match.
I'm not looking for a fan club but rather am only trying to bring to light what is going on in San Diego County climbing areas that must discontinue.
If I wrote a list of my ascents and 1st ascents it would take many pages and I climb for the love of climbing and that's why I don't need the fan club, just the respect for my 1st ascents.
End of conversation!!!

FLAG
By Jeff Ludwig
From phoenix, Az
May 3, 2012
A comparison between the the test piece Bacher-Yerian route in Toulmmne Meadows and the routes with " well thought out protection " at Descanso cannot be made.

FLAG
 
By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
May 3, 2012
Colonel Mustard
Brian in SLC wrote:
Original Stonemasters is a pretty short list of folks...


I guess so. It certainly is an odd way to announce yourself that I don't notice other original SMs leading with on the boards.

Still, Martin has a point that many here are parsing around the issue with trivial semantic concerns and the like. It kind of sucks for others to write over the FA-ists efforts - especially when they are still around and pissed about it!

FLAG
By James Crump
May 3, 2012
Brian in SLC wrote:
Yeah, well that's Bold Talk for a One-Eyed Fat Man Cheers, James!


I just like the way Brian called me out with perfect accuracy!

Thanks Brian!!!

FLAG
By John Knight
May 3, 2012
John Knight
Some thoughts for Mr. V.

1. Internet debates get nowhere. I imagine you've discovered that by seeing some of the responses.

2. If you are truly offended by the added bolts to your routes, go out there with your chisel & epoxy patch and remove them.

Better yet, head out there with a few friends and try to work on getting a consensus on a bolt by bolt basis as to which ones should be removed and which ones (if any) should remain. Perhaps you'll find that reasonable people think additional protection may be necessary. Perhaps not. Keep an open mind.

Not to belabor the point, BUT, there's no "traction" to be gained by internet debates about bolts. You should make an effort to talk to people that might have added the bolts - but ultimately, it's your decision.

Just my extra 2 cents.

John

PS - I'm not trying to be jerk here, but you might consider having a friend review your writing before you post it. Comments about your writing only detract from the point of your message.

FLAG
By Brian in SLC
May 3, 2012
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
James Crump wrote:
I just like the way Brian called me out with perfect accuracy! Thanks Brian!!!


Well, James, we can't all be Stranger Than Friction or not have a Fear of Flying.

Thanks for signing my Dome Driver's license!

FLAG
By Josh Kornish
From Missoula, MT
May 3, 2012
Humboldt Bouldering
wow

FLAG
By Willie Wilson
From America
May 3, 2012
@John Knight "Perhaps you'll find that reasonable people think additional protection may be necessary. Perhaps not. "

I doen't matter what "reasonable people" think about the safety of a route. Adding bolts to an established climb without the approval of the first ascent party is unacceptable.

FLAG
By Mitch Musci
From Fort Collins, CO
May 3, 2012
Tough crowd, but really John Knight put it well. I understand your intentions with the post are to raise awareness and gain support in your quest to overthrow the retro-bolters and restore your routes to their original nature.

And even more so on a grander scheme, to speak as a "stone master" and remind climbers of correct, respectful ethics.

But as with many things on internet forums, your plea hits a variable crowd. True, many of us are shaking our heads, wondering why anyone would retrobolt a route. But ultimately I feel you need to keep your campaign local and get to the bottom of it in a more traditional manner.

Call me blind but I'm guessing 90% of MP users see this site as both:
1. A great place for free beta and
2. Entertainment

FLAG
By Dylan Weldin
From Austin, Texas
May 3, 2012
Summit of my first tower, the Rectory via Fine Jad...
Edited for paragraphs (I couldn't do it without 'em):

To all parties concerned I have the following to say and then I'm expecting that the people responsible for that noted will not just stop but remove the added bolts to my 1st ascents. I'd like to also know how to attach my topos of Descanso Crag, Lawson Pk. and Stonewall Pk. so that everyone can see what's been established by both others and myself but I do not know how to do this yet.
I've received 2 e-mails and one phone call thus far about my concerns and find thus far that my concerns are indeed justified.

What has been going on since the 1st and 2nd edition of D. Kenney and C. Hubbard's guidebook to San Diego County is several people have come out to the 3 areas mentioned, in particular Descanso, and have added numerous bolts to my 1st ascents. I have always noted that if you feel my bolts to be unsafe or questionable, then remove them and replace them with newer and better ones but do not add any extra ones as I have gone to great lengths to provide my climbs with well thought out protection.

What our main intention was and still is, is to have a varaity of climbs to not only keep the ethics I've grown up with, but to also teach of the several climbing potentials that one may one day encounter-hangerless bolts, runnouts, the complete aray of clean protection possibilities rather than bolts. For example, recently added is at least 8 new bolts to my "Into the Eye of the Son" that starts at the origional most obivious way to start the climb by diagonaling from rigth to left accross a seam and crack which protects very well with a # 4 Rock and a .5 cam before ending into face climbing where I put in the 1st bolt and have been told that the person who put these bolts in is a 5.14 climber but for the life of me don't understand why they would need bolts epoxied in next to this seam/crack that's only approx. 5.6 - 5.7 climbing.

I've made one attempt last week to remove the 1st epoxied bolt but to no avail. The person who put these in along with all others added to my climbs needs to go back and remove them-but if not, no worries-I will!!!

Now per phone conversation with Ben May yesterday we discussed that I don't own the rock and neither does anyone else. But what we agreed on was that bolts next to areas that accept "clean" protection should never have bolts placed. And that the 1st ascent is to be respected and not violated without discussion with the 1st ascent party should someone disagree with the amount of protection provided. As also discussed, this crag is completely topropeable for those who feel they are not into risky climbs. I'm now 57 and obiviously lived thru the risks I've taken and don't expect others to do what they're not comfortable with. But as many of you probably have read the books and stories of the elders who made this great sport into what it is and meant to be, it's about being one with the mountains and rock and therefore discovering what's deep inside of you and bringing forth to your very being that which sometimes only a little risk can bring out.

Look at what's been acomplished by the greats like Layton Kor, John Bachar, Peter Croft, Ron Kauk, Jim Bridwell, John Long, Reinhold Messner, Chris Bonnington, Tony Yaniro, Rick Piggot, John Harlin, Jerry Gallwas, Royal Robbins, and so many countless other Stone Masters. The mountains brought out the best in them and helped make them the great people that they are. So for the life of me I don't understand why people think that San Diego crags are exempt from the ethics of not retrobolting other people's 1st ascents. I've never added nor removed other peoples bolts on their climbs as though we don't own the rock, we do own our 1st ascents as they are our works of art and deserve respect even if we don't find them to be beautifull.

Should we touch up the Mona Lisa to suit our eye, or the statue of David? You have to make love to the rock so to speak and not rape it. Hell I've even seen a guy rappeling down and placeing pro to put in an aid climb-how do you learn aid climbing like that? I've even put in one bolt on rappel several years ago to see if the new style felt right and after I did so and climbed the route I knew I would never do so again. Many of the climbs I put in I did with less and/or no bolts and then came back later and added others to make them safer for others but I did leave a few with runnouts as like the "Bachar-Yerin" in Yosemite-that's what makes the climb so special for those who can.

Do you think Ron Kauk would allow bolts added to "Tales of Power" and "Seperate Reality"? And one day when he's dead and gone I expect that if any fool puts in bolts on those 2 most excellent climbs that they will get removed. So yes my 1st ascents, my works of art, the trails I've blazed to get to the rock are special to me and many other Stone Masters. I free soloed "Into the Eye of the Son" once, roped soloed "The Vampire" and "North-East Face Route" on Half Dome.

I've free soloed approx. 1/4 of all of the 137 climbs I've put up at Descanso and roped soloed over 1/2 of them just for both practice and for the love of it when I was the climbing animal I once was. Oct. 1, 2010 I had to have a double by-pass surgery on my heart and am fully recovered as far as I'll ever be, but I'll never be that lizard I once was but still do one finger pullups, one arm pushups, and hike 5 miles most every morning at 5am before going to work. I'm retriming my trail system at Descanso and will be back on the rock by winter this year. And I will be removing all bolts added to my climbs at Descanso, Stonewall Pk. and Lawson Pk. again and again until I'm dead and gone and then my son and 4 grandsons will not allow my works of art to be degraded.

In closing, I have the utmost respect for everyone I meet and I do meet a lot of people as I am the Calif. Division of the State's Architect Inspector of Record Class 1 here at Helix H.S. in La Mesa, Ca. and my job is to inspect each and every aspect of construction of the new Performing Arts Complex currently in progress for Code compliance = I have the highest of ethics-is my job, it's what I do, it's who I am and my last name is Cajun which translates into "Those who keep watch."
Therefore since I give everyone respect even though we don't always see eye to eye on everything, I expect likewise please.
And always to remember is the 11th commandment that Jesus Christ gave us-"Love your neighbor as you love yourself." If we all just do that then there can be world peace at last-what a beautifull concept!!!

FLAG
 
By Dylan Weldin
From Austin, Texas
May 4, 2012
Summit of my first tower, the Rectory via Fine Jad...
In summary:

1) A young man retro-ed this old man's route: mountainproject.com/v/into-the...

A .5 cam and a small nut protect the equivalent ar...
A .5 cam and a small nut protect the equivalent area of 6 bolts. That is not the issue: the issue is the lack of open dialogue between the FA'ist and the retro-er...

2) This old man should have a nice chat with the young man who retro-ed his route

3) They should learn something from each other

4) The old man will either come to understand the convenience of the retro-ing -OR- the young man will become informed about why there is value in being scared and schlepping a heavier backpack full of trad gear

5) The debate will end (settled over a beer in the parking lot and not on the internet)

FLAG
By DexterRutecki
From Cincinnati, Ohio
May 4, 2012
This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.



Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 1 of 4.  1  2  3  4   Next>   Last>>