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Risk tolerance in partners

Original Post
Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090

We've all been there, climbed with a partner who took more risks than you were comfortable with, or was so careful it hindered everything you did.

Recently it became very apparent the differences in my partners after doing the same route back to back in two days with different partners (East Ridge of Wolfs Head).

In this instance it wasn't particularly the climbing, but the descent that separates the two. The first day my partner was more cautious than I was on the descent and I had to provide a rope and half ass belay in 4th class terrain that I scrambled or walked without concern multiple times.

The second day my partner and I made the descent quickly and efficiently.

In this case it mostly boiled down to confidence and fear factors for the two partners, but it got me thinking, hour do you evaluate you and your partners compatibility in the area of risk acceptance/management?

Obviously you both have to have a level of comfort with what you're doing, and if you know up front your partner is the weaker or less confident one, you have to cater to that or not climb with them.

Thoughts?

Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10

Thought #1, Don't forget to open yourself to the possibility that it is you who is too risky, or too conservative. Have an intelligent conversation with the partner.

Nathan Self · · Louisiana · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 90
Sam Stephens wrote:...I had to provide a rope and half ass belay...
Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090
Nathan Self wrote:
To clarify, put on belay and braced behind a large rock.
Bill M · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 317

I think you need a number of partners, then you can choose the best one for the objective. I climb with folks both more and less risk adverse. I also find that my risk tolerance is a function of how much I have climbed recently and other factors I can't figure out.

Dylan Colon · · Eugene, OR · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 491

For better or worse, I seem to have a higher risk tolerance than most, but not all, of my climbing partners. Hence, depending on the objective, the list of people I think I'd enjoy attempting a climb with varies depending on how scared I think I'm likely to be, and how scared they're likely to be.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Sam Stephens wrote:We've all been there, climbed with a partner who took more risks than you were comfortable with, or was so careful it hindered everything you did. Recently it became very apparent the differences in my partners after doing the same route back to back in two days with different partners (East Ridge of Wolfs Head). In this instance it wasn't particularly the climbing, but the descent that separates the two. The first day my partner was more cautious than I was on the descent and I had to provide a rope and half ass belay in 4th class terrain that I scrambled or walked without concern multiple times. The second day my partner and I made the descent quickly and efficiently. In this case it mostly boiled down to confidence and fear factors for the two partners, but it got me thinking, hour do you evaluate you and your partners compatibility in the area of risk acceptance/management? Obviously you both have to have a level of comfort with what you're doing, and if you know up front your partner is the weaker or less confident one, you have to cater to that or not climb with them. Thoughts?
Experience and skill creates confidence. The more experienced you are in climbing, the more likely you are to take risks, move with purpose and speed, and manage risks appropriately. This is almost universally true of most activities. I dont view someone who takes few risks in climbing has having some weird, uncommon personality, only that they are still new and need more practice. Just as you probably wouldnt move with such excellence, confidence and speed on the court as an experienced basketball player does, you friend might not be as comfortable flying across the 4th class without a rope as you are. There is nothing wrong with being cautious, and it only shows that the climber is probably still learning, or takes safety very seriously.

On the other side, someone who takes excessive risks relative to their experience is probably complacent or overconfident. Intermediate climbers are often at the greatest risk of injury. Beginners dont know anything, but they are cautious most of the time. Experts take risk, but they have significant experience to manage that risk. Intermediate climbers start accepting greater levels of risk, but without the necessary experience to properly manage that risk. Climbers who are reckless, uncaring or take uncontrolled risk are a statistic waiting to happen, and those are the types of climbers you want to avoid.
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

I am terrified of heights, but I am also normally the one on lead when climbing. However if we are setting a top rope on the edge of the cliff I only do it if I am taking new climbers out who can't.

Setting up top ropes is my least favorite thing to do because most areas it requires being on the edge of cliff to reach the anchors. It isn't that I can't do it but I prefer not doing it. I also generally try to avoid walking to the edge of slanted cliff edges to hook in on rappel but have climbed with plenty of others who have no problem doing it.

To me the scariest thing I ever did was the top of snake dike crawling up the last 1000ft or so of 3rd class.

As long as my partner is not doing something that puts me in danger I really don't care if they want to solo a pitch and belay me up.

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

"How do you evaluate you and your partners compatibility in the area of risk acceptance/management?"

You have to get out there with them on stuff less committing than you were on. Find something short that you are comfortable free-soloing ... not necessarily an established route.

Invite them on it. Bring rope, harnesses, and a little gear. Explain you are so familiar that a free solo is reasonable but that this was not the case when you first tried it. Let them choose when to rope up ... for the most part.

Keep it reasonable - it is less of a test and more about getting to know each other. And let them reciprocate if they would like.

You will learn a lot about each other.

And once you decide to team up with them on something big - that is it. They can do no wrong. You are a team and have each other's backs both during and after the climb.

That's my goal anyways. :-)

Russ Keane · · Salt Lake · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 392

This is a very worthy topic of discussion.

Chemistry between partners, in terms of fear, risk, anxiety, approaches, descents, speed of movement.... These are all HUGE in terms of how the day goes.

It can be fun-- or a complete nightmare.

Try to use people you have climbed with before. The familiarity is essential.

patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
Sam Stephens wrote:The first day my partner was more cautious than I was on the descent and I had to provide a rope and half ass belay in 4th class terrain that I scrambled or walked without concern multiple times.
Been there and done that. In fact I put alot of time and effort into leading an expedition where my partner let me down majorly due to his lack of preparation and his inability to negotiate 4th class terrain.

Ultimately it a big part of it was my fault for not picking the right partner.

We all have different abilities and tolerance for risk. Accept that and climb with people of similar attitudes when speed and progression matter. (Plenty of times I am completely tolerant of dealing with noobs. Though if I have specific goals with short time frames I need a decent partner.)

Likewise I'm sure by other people's standards I'm a noob too who can't climb hard enough and has low big wall experience.

A must say that after a LONG argument I was kinda frustrated leading a 60m pitch of tiered ledges without placing a single item of protection just so my partners could follow me up!

(I don't solo, I just wouldn't call that class 5 terrain.)
Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090
Russ Keane wrote:This is a very worthy topic of discussion. Chemistry between partners, in terms of fear, risk, anxiety, approaches, descents, speed of movement.... These are all HUGE in terms of how the day goes. It can be fun-- or a complete nightmare. Try to use people you have climbed with before. The familiarity is essential.
I think it's a topic that isn't thought of enough, especially when you get away from the sport crag and that's kind of why I brought it up.

The partner in question that was less accepting of risk in the situation I posted was my wife. Would I do anything in the world to make sure she gets down safely, absolutely. Will I continue to climb with her, even though our risk levels are different, absolutely. I understand my role there and it's to make sure we both return home safely, period.

But when it comes to other partners, I'm careful about who I pick for big missions, and who I take into places knowing I'll have to be entirely responsible for them. I've mentored enough people to know that at the end of the day the main objective is everyone goes home in one piece.

Obviously it's important to place value on the different levels of risk associated with different types of climbing. The commitment and risk levels associated with bouldering pale in comparison to being umpteen miles in with only yourself and your partner for a 5.11X first ascent with no cell service.

I think we all have plenty of partners that we already assign those groups to. I know who out of my normal crew I can count on in a shit storm, and who's going to curl up in a ball and cry.

I believe that the way we judge our partners experience levels and levels for risk tolerance comes through experience though and judging their character in different situations as you build that partner relationship. A casual day out doing some easy multi-pitch can be a great place to assess these traits. How do they anchor themselves at a belay? Do they take on responsibilities at the belay at the end of a pitch? What is their apparent level of comfort dealing with tangled ropes? Do they or do they not tie knots in the ends? Do they excessively back up the rappel knot?

Another way you may assess these traits is by their routines in getting ready, showing up, etc. These may not be the best indicator, as we are all different, but their preparedness when they show up for a trip to the crag, their willingness to clean up around camp, or how quick they roll out of bed to get breakfast going may all speak to their ability to respond to situations and their environment.

Likewise, if they show up and want to talk about their triple redundant rappel extender with mussy hooks attached to their harness, you may want to run away.
Ryan Hamilton · · Orem · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 5
Sam Stephens wrote: I think it's a topic that isn't thought of enough, especially when you get away from the sport crag and that's kind of why I brought it up. The partner in question that was less accepting of risk in the situation I posted was my wife. Would I do anything in the world to make sure she gets down safely, absolutely. Will I continue to climb with her, even though our risk levels are different, absolutely. I understand my role there and it's to make sure we both return home safely, period. But when it comes to other partners, I'm careful about who I pick for big missions, and who I take into places knowing I'll have to be entirely responsible for them. I've mentored enough people to know that at the end of the day the main objective is everyone goes home in one piece. Obviously it's important to place value on the different levels of risk associated with different types of climbing. The commitment and risk levels associated with bouldering pale in comparison to being umpteen miles in with only yourself and your partner for a 5.11X first ascent with no cell service. I think we all have plenty of partners that we already assign those groups to. I know who out of my normal crew I can count on in a shit storm, and who's going to curl up in a ball and cry. I believe that the way we judge our partners experience levels and levels for risk tolerance comes through experience though and judging their character in different situations as you build that partner relationship. A casual day out doing some easy multi-pitch can be a great place to assess these traits. How do they anchor themselves at a belay? Do they take on responsibilities at the belay at the end of a pitch? What is their apparent level of comfort dealing with tangled ropes? Do they or do they not tie knots in the ends? Do they excessively back up the rappel knot? Another way you may assess these traits is by their routines in getting ready, showing up, etc. These may not be the best indicator, as we are all different, but their preparedness when they show up for a trip to the crag, their willingness to clean up around camp, or how quick they roll out of bed to get breakfast going may all speak to their ability to respond to situations and their environment. Likewise, if they show up and want to talk about their triple redundant rappel extender with mussy hooks attached to their harness, you may want to run away.
Very well stated.
djh860 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 110

I've read accident reports where very strong climbers fell off 4th class terrain and died. Maybe your risk averse partner has too.

Ryan Hamilton · · Orem · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 5
djh860 wrote:I've read accident reports where very strong climbers fell off 4th class terrain and died. Maybe your risk averse partner has too.
I don't think he was discussing whether or not something is risky, it's a discussion about matching up with climbing partners that have a similar level of risk tolerance.
Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090
djh860 wrote:I've read accident reports where very strong climbers fell off 4th class terrain and died. Maybe your risk averse partner has too.
Ryan is correct, the question is not "Is this too risky, or is my partner too cautious?"

It's "How do you evaluate risk tolerance in partners in comparison to your own and what comes with those evaluations?"

People die every day doing less risky stuff. Danger in climbing is almost entirely predicated on how risky you decide to make it. It is only as dangerous as you allow it to be, extenuating circumstances aside.
Ryan Hamilton · · Orem · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 5
Sam Stephens wrote: Ryan is correct, the question is not "Is this too risky, or is my partner too cautious?" It's "How do you evaluate risk tolerance in partners in comparison to your own and what comes with those evaluations?" People die every day doing less risky stuff. Danger in climbing is almost entirely predicated on how risky you decide to make it. It is only as dangerous as you allow it to be, extenuating circumstances aside.
And the simple answer to your question is, you don't really know until you climb with them.

Obviously you can get to know climbers before you climb with them by talking about routes, grades, and types of climbing, each of you are comfortable climbing.

After that it's just a matter of climbing some multi-pitch and seeing how the handle unroped scrambling, anchor setup, etc.
David Gibbs · · Ottawa, ON · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2
Sam Stephens wrote: Likewise, if they show up and want to talk about their triple redundant rappel extender with mussy hooks attached to their harness, you may want to run away.
LOL. Literally, laughing out loud.
Tradgic Yogurt · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2016 · Points: 55
Sam Stephens wrote: These may not be the best indicator, as we are all different, but their preparedness when they show up for a trip to the crag, their willingness to clean up around camp, or how quick they roll out of bed to get breakfast going may all speak to their ability to respond to situations and their environment...
People's chronotypes vary entirely too much for me to believe that there's any valid risk information contained in how and when someone rolls out of bed. I may be taking on way more risk to wake up after only a couple of REM cycles to do an alpine start than I am for the climb - because I'll be drowsy and sleep-deprived (extra risky if I have to drive to the trailhead in the dark, or the hike in requires optimal awareness).

In contrast, another person might be fading and making mental mistakes by the time the afternoon thunderstorm is rolling, while I am quite alert and functional. Which goes back to the initial question - how do you assess ability to handle risk. My personal opinion is that the only way is by climbing with someone repeatedly. Not camping, not hiking, not by whether they made coffee for you to mooch off of ;) .
Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

.... and after you get the risk-tolerance thingy figured out, work on sussing out their willingness to suffer to complete a worthy mission. ;-)

Edit to add: and I do think we are blurring the line here between risk of failure (a.k.a., probability) and consequence of failure. The consequences of failure is general a crossed people of all capabilities. While risk of failure can vary from person to person.

And even the consequence of failure is not really a constant across all people. For example, I know through decades of experience that my failing to keep from rolling my foot while hiking generally does not have much consequence. My ankle seem to be relatively stout. On the other hand, I have partnersfor whom a rolled ankle is pretty serious. We generally can hike down hill at very different maximum rates. :-)

Back on the probability topic, that of course varies significantly from person to person. There is the usual differences in strength and endurance. And then there's the ability to read the rock: not just to find the easiest way through a tough section but also the ability to detect suspect rock. These all and others conspire to make the point of failure for someone else very hard to predict.

So it is all very difficult, Unless you spend time climbing, scrambling, and hiking with someone enough to get to know them.

Russ Keane · · Salt Lake · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 392

For me, one of the best predictors is someone's health and fitness. People who eat badly, or skip breakfast, or drink too much, they tend to BONK and end up at a point of poor mental acuity. People who are in poor fitness can't last as long in the day and are more likely to screw up.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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